(spooky music)
(birds crowing)
- What?
Mike?
- Yeah, hey, how are ya?
This is fucking terrifying.
- Are we...
Are we gaming?
- You're gaming.
I'm just watching you through my fingers,
because that's kinda how I handle this kind of stuff.
And this is a scary fucking game.
- This is everything I've ever dreamed of.
I'm getting to play a video game with Mike Flanagan.
- Wow, that was the pinnacle, huh?
- This was it, yeah.
- Sorry to hear that.
- Oh, this is moody.
- [Mike] Yeah.
- Do you still get scared?
- Oh yes, yes.
And horror video games, in particular,
is a big nope from me.
- Oh.
- Especially first-person stuff,
like, just, big nope.
I used to watch my roommates play,
I think it was Resident Evil 2, when I was in college,
and we would watch it like a movie, and we'd hide.
But ever since I was a kid,
I've always watched scary stuff through my fingers.
I get very uncomfortable with it.
- So I was gonna ask you that.
'Cause I remember, and I'm paraphrasing,
but Tom Hardy said
that the reason why he has an affinity
for playing scary characters,
like why he's good at it, is because he's afraid.
- Yeah. - He's always afraid,
so he's able to portray that.
Is that the case for you?
Like, is it because you have fear
or you know what scares you
that you're able to scare audiences?
Does that play into that?
- I think maybe, yeah.
I was a really--
Yup, there we go.
I was a really--
That was just a fucking bird.
I was a really scared kid.
I was scared of everything.
I was scared of my own shadow.
- Oh wow.
- I used to like hide behind the couch.
The first thing that gave me nightmares,
I remember it, was an episode of "Fraggle Rock",
like scared the shit out of me.
They had a thing called the Terrible Tunnel
where all the ghosts of Fraggles were trapped forever.
- Yeah. - It was really upsetting.
And so I got into horror,
mostly books,
Stephen King books,
because I was too scared to watch movies.
- Oh, so you just started with the novels.
- I thought that would be less scary,
'cause it was all gonna be in my head.
- Sure. - I could control it.
- That's a rookie-- - Opposite is true.
- Yeah, that's a noob mistake right there.
Oh.
- But if I was like brave enough
to make it through a scary chapter
or a scary movie
or, like, a scary video game,
then it was like a little exercise in courage.
- Sure. - It was like going to the gym
and just doing a little bit of exercise in bravery.
- Yeah.
- And so you kind of keep going--
- [Video Game VO] Ethan...
- [Video Game VO 2] What?
- Don't like that. - Yeah.
You don't like horror at all, do you?
- I don't.
I was very angry with you.
I don't know if you remember.
After booking "Bly",
and at my first meeting with you in Vancouver,
literally within a minute,
I kind of had a go at you
for the jump scare in "Hill House."
- Yeah, in F8, yeah.
- In the car.
- Yeah, that's a good scare.
- 'Cause I like doing research
and having to rewatch your work
was so scary.
- [Video Game VO] There's something I have to tell you.
- [Video Game VO 2] Mia?
- But it's funny though,
'cause on the, like,
when we were shooting "Bly",
it never felt like we were making a horror.
- No, and that's the thing about making horror
is it never feels like horror. - No.
- No, it feels like comedy,
and it's all the same rules.
It's rhythm
and timing
and everyone's having a great time,
'cause you break out the blood
and the makeup and everything.
It's really fun.
- Yeah.
- But I think that's--
(video game whispers)
I'm sorry for you
that you were uncomfortable starting "Bly", but--
- Even the scripts.
I remember sitting there reading the scripts,
and I put the lights on.
I remember having to put the lights on in the apartment.
I'm just, it's an overactive imagination,
I guess. - Yeah.
- [Video Game Woman] Everyone leaves me.
- You know what else it is?
It's an expression of your empathy.
- Huh.
- Because when you get scared watching someone else
in a scary situation,
it's because you've put yourself into their shoes.
- Which is handy
if you're an actor.
- Very handy if you're an actor,
and I think handy just to be a human.
But yeah, that's the beautiful thing about horror.
It lets us be brave
in a very controlled way.
And the more we expose ourselves to it,
the more courage we kind of grow.
- Yeah.
- And the more we get used to
worrying for other people
and their safety
and being able to see through their eyes.
So I think horror has a really beautiful benefit
to the world.
It's also just really fucking fun.
- Sure.
- Like it's fun to be scared.
- Do you--
- Jesus.
(Rahul laughs)
- Yeah, this is intense. - Yeah.
- I feel like I'm already a bit lost.
But obviously you've done...
with regards to horror, like TV and film.
- Yeah.
- When it comes to building tension,
jump scares, things like that,
like how do you manage that
across a season versus a two-hour movie?
Like how do you build tension across a 10-episode arc?
- Much harder in television,
but much more fun.
I prefer television that way,
'cause a movie, you're just kind of getting going
with that tension,
and then it dissipates,
and the jump scares, I hate jump scares.
I hate 'em.
- Oh really?
- To this day.
They're cheap shots, you know? - Yeah.
- And they evaporate tension.
More often than anything, people laugh--
- [Video Game Man] What's going on?
- When they start.
- 'Cause it just breaks, 'cause they're pent up.
- Yeah, it just breaks that whole thing.
And that takes all that beautiful atmosphere
and tension you've built,
and it completely lets the air out of the balloon,
and everybody's too busy laughing to be scared.
See, this would wreck me.
- Yeah, I'm like...
Video games for me, like,
there's a passive experience,
which is when you're watching a TV show or a film.
- Yeah.
- It's happening whether you like it or not.
- Yeah, you're on a ride.
- You're on a ride.
This is forcing you to turn the corner
you don't wanna turn.
- Yup.
And you know,
and that's the anticipation of it is always worse.
- Oh God.
This is creepy.
- Yeah, this is great.
But yeah.
I think for long form,
it's really tough to build enough scares in,
because you are deflating tension as you go.
(creepy music)
That's unfortunate.
(Rahul laughs)
And with a movie, so often it's just about a scare
every five minutes or ten minutes.
It becomes really kind of metered out.
But I think for me, what I love about it
is having time to spend with characters and atmosphere.
- You care about them, right?
- [Mike] I want that over scares every time.
Yeah. - And you're more invested.
- Yeah, if you care about people, the scares land.
Otherwise it's just, you're walking up behind people
and banging things behind their head.
- Sure. - And startling them,
and that's fun, but.
- Am I right?
Did I imagine this?
Is your favorite movie "Jaws"?
Was that your favorite horror movie?
Did I get that right?
- Yeah, that's right.
- Nailed it.
- Yep, mmhmm.
- How old were you when you first saw "Jaws"?
- I was a kid,
and I've probably seen that movie 200 times in my life.
Like I learned to appreciate filmmaking
just watching that movie
over and over again as a kid.
- Yep.
- And realizing like, oh my God,
these shots are really well-composed,
and they cut together in a really specific way.
- That was your first awareness
of the filmmaking process? - Yeah.
And then I thought I knew that movie
like the back of my hand,
but I'd only ever seen it on VHS.
- Oh. - Four by three.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
So you hadn't seen it framed. - I finally saw it letterboxed
to where they had restored
the whole picture.
And I felt like I was seeing the movie for the first time.
But, yeah, I learned a lot about movies from that.
- Why is the biggest scare in that movie --
And it's one of those.
That jump scare where they're under water
and the body-- - Yeah.
- Comes up, the whole-- - Ben Gardner.
- Yeah. - His head pops through the--
- No matter how many times I've seen it,
I can't time...
the jump scare.
I cannot prepare mentally for it.
- It's pretty great.
Neat trick with that.
He brings all the other sounds down to almost nothing
right before that happens.
And they had played the shark theme,
and Dreyfuss is looking around,
and it's like you're expecting the shark from behind him.
And then all the music drops away,
so he makes a bed of silence right before it.
And you see the head start to rock into frame
about a half second before you hear the big musical sting,
which is a technique that that movie does beautifully.
A lot of movies forget it.
They put the big, loud noise
right on the first frame of the thing,
but if you let the visual hit your brain--
- And then there's that delay.
- And as you react,
you get hit with the audio a split second later,
it's incredibly effective.
- Huh. - But yeah.
- Would you ever...
Would you ever take your talents to the video game world?
Would you? - I would love to.
I would absolutely love.
(Rahul groans)
- See that's what I don't like.
I have to--
- Having to go around the corner.
- I have to pan this camera.
- Yeah.
- Myself. - Yep.
- And...
For God's sake.
It's so unsettling.
- It is.
(Rahul groans)
(door shuts)
- Forcing you to participate in it is amazing.
And it's fun to watch for me.
Like I'm enjoying watching you
as this terrified-- - This is how I watched--
- Man-child trying to play this game.
- Well, this is how I watched all your work.
Like this is how I do research.
It's that.
I pick a frame of the TV,
so whenever you've got stuff going on there,
so it looks like I'm in that direction.
- But you can look off there. - I'm cheating.
- Yeah, very smart.
- Oh.
We had a this-and-that
that was provided.
Okay, are you ready?
- [Mike] Yeah, I'm ready.
- Freddy or Jason, who's scarier?
- Freddy.
- Ooh, "Alien" or "Predator"?
- Alien.
- Werewolves or vampires?
- Vampires.
- Frankenstein or Dracula?
- Dracula.
But do you mean the monster or Dracula?
- It would be Frankenstein's--
- Or Dr. Frankenstein?
- It could be Frankenstein's monster, right?
- Frankenstein's monster or Dracula.
I'm gonna say Dracula.
(Rahul laughs)
- I know that, "Hill House" or "Bly Manor"?
(Mike laughs)
- Oh, man.
That's unfair. - That is unfair.
- That's really unfair.
- That's like me asking you to pick a favorite child.
- You just Sophie's Choiced me.
Um...
I'm gonna say, for me, "Hill House".
- Mm. - Yeah.
- Same. - Yeah?
- Yeah.
Well, obviously I have affection for both.
- Yeah. - But "Hill House",
I think 'cause I was a bit more disconnected,
because I wasn't part of that one.
- [Mike] Yeah.
- It broke me,
and it was, yeah, it was phenomenal.
But I also have so much affection for "Bly",
because of the Miles and Flora are like family, and then.
- Oh they're wonderful.
Yeah.
No, I love both of the shows for different reasons.
"Hill House" is always gonna be really special to me.
- [Rahul] Yeah.
- But "Bly", you know,
"Bly" is where I met you.
And now we're just working together all the time.
- We are.
- Which is such a delightful thing.
- And we have something very,
very, very special coming at some point,
which we can't talk about right now,
but "Midnight Mass".
- Yes.
Yeah, we don't wanna spoil that,
but that was an amazing, amazing thing.
It's my favorite.
If you were to ask me these questions a year from now,
and it's like, that's my favorite
I think I've gotten to work on.
- Yeah.
- [Mike] And you're fucking great on that show, so...
- Aww, Mike. - It's gonna be really cool.
- Um...
Yeah.
That show as well was like...
We, obviously, we filmed during the pandemic.
- Yeah.
- Like we were one of the first.
- We were among the very first shows in the world
to go up during the pandemic, yeah.
- Yeah.
- And that was terrifying.
That was--
- It was uncharted territory. - Yeah.
The protocols were brand new.
We were kind of the test case,
and we made it through the whole experience.
We never shut down one day.
- Nope. - Nope.
- It became-- - It was 83 days of shooting.
- We were the guinea pigs.
- [Mike] Yeah.
- Here we go.
All right, I'm gonna do this.
If you...
Like, obviously you're known for horror.
Is there a genre that you would love to.
like if you were given any, like, complete free range,
is there a genre that you'd love to tackle that you haven't?
- Oh, yeah.
No, look, I'd love to make a huge sci-fi project.
I'd love to.
- Without horror elements? - Without horror elements.
- You wouldn't go "Alien" with it?
- Proper sci-fi. - Oh.
- I've always wanted to do a family film.
My kids can't see any single thing I've ever done.
- [Rahul] (laughing) Yeah.
- I would love to do something my kids could watch.
And I've always really wanted to do a Western.
- Mike, that's my favorite.
- [Mike] Yeah, I think that would be a blast.
- [Rahul] Yeah.
I feel like this is getting...
- You're doomed.
I mean something.
- I don't like this.
Ah!
Okay.
We have a doll.
- Yeah.
(video game screams)
- [Video Game Doll] I've been waiting for so long.
I'd make a much better daughter than Rose.
Please, won't you stay with me...
Forever?
(video game doll cackles)
- What?
Are we?
Oh, the doll's gone. - Looks like the doll--
- Oh, there's a bigger one.
- Yeah, human-sized doll.
- Oh.
There we go.
Do I need to...
Guess I'm examining it.
- Now I'm just getting sucked into the game.
- That's the problem with game plays.
- Yeah.
- It just becomes about that.
I don't, am I.
Why do I feel like this is gonna spring up in a second?
I don't know what I'm doing here.
(clock ticks)
- One of the things I find so scary about games like this
is that you get completely
just stuck in the world
and unless you advance yourself forward,
you're never getting out, right?
- Right.
- Like you're stuck here.
And I think I'm wondering
what it is about your life right now
that's made you dream this,
and I think it's because you're fully trapped now
in my world,
like you are stuck in the Intrepid universe,
because for someone who hates horror shows,
you're just gonna be cast in them again and again and again.
And there's really no escape for you at this point.
- That's one way to look at it, yeah.
- Yeah, I think it's probably time now
for you to wake up.
Wake up.
Rahul, wake up.
Wake up.
(dream shimmers)