with me this morning are msnbc legal
analysts former u.s attorney in alabama
and co-host of the podcast
sisters-in-law joyce vance and former
federal prosecutor and host of the
justice matters podcast glenn kirschner
good morning to both of you my good
friends glenn let's start with you that
breaking committee news from last night
about rudy giuliani why do you think
rudy finally decided to testify when so
many of trump's inner circle said peace
out not gonna do it and especially after
rudy said that he would not do it if it
wasn't going to be recorded
yeah katie i don't know whether there is
a cause and effect at play but what have
we learned in recent days the department
of justice has requested all of the
transcripts from the january 6 committee
for the 1 000 plus witnesses that have
appeared before the committee and
provided testimony so
all of a sudden what do we learn we
learned that bill barr has apparently
agreed to talk to the committee and now
we know that rudy giuliani has testified
to the committee for nine hours is there
a cause and effect at play here you know
there may be but i will tell you the one
thing that surprises me most about rudy
giuliani having testified is that he did
it at all because i i fully expected he
would continue to offer privileges
whether legitimate or otherwise he might
have some legitimate attorney client
privilege claims with respect to
information involving his representation
of donald trump he could try to assert
an executive privilege claim though i
think that would be weak but there is
one privileged claim that he absolutely
has it's a fifth amendment right against
self-incrimination because we know he is
still under criminal investigation by
the southern district of new york after
a federal judge issued a warrant
concluding there was probable cause to
believe there was evidence of crime in
rudy's electronic devices so i don't
know what the substance of his testimony
was yesterday but i would be surprised
if he didn't try to assert a whole bunch
of privileges i would also been
surprised if it was lucid and competent
so joyce the washington post is
reporting that justice clarence thomas's
wife jimmy thomas pressed arizona
lawmakers after the 2020 election to set
aside the popular vote victory for joe
biden and select a quote clean slate of
electors this is according to emails
obtained by the washington post joyce we
already know about those mark meadows
texts why is this not
news enough new news enough to put jenny
thomas in an interview seat to have to
answer questions
it should put jenny thomas in that
interview seat
probably from the committee certainly
from the justice department but katie we
live in this real world where there are
sensitivities surrounding supreme court
justices and their families and i think
it will be difficult quite frankly for
people to navigate these issues where in
fact it should be simple because if
jenny thomas was anyone else with the
sort of knowledge she's displayed on
multiple issues investigators would sit
down and have a chat with her not
necessarily that she's a target for
investigation but they would want to
know what she knows and and most
importantly here is this incredible
coincidence that she's out pushing this
same scheme that we know ultimately
comes to fruition among those closest to
trump this scheme to create blank slates
of electors electors who aren't the
choice of the people but who instead are
pansies for the former president people
who are supposed to go in and do his
work for him
and that's a little bit too close for
comfort that coincidence so that
warrants further investigation and joyce
your point is important right it's not
just the insurrectionists and the events
leading up to january 6 it's you know
this slate of electors it's not just the
violence but it's a violence on paper of
disarming the vote for the people glenn
i want to stay stay on this issue of
justice thomas in recent comments he has
blamed the erosion of trust in the
supreme court on the recent roe draft
leak in light of these continuous
revelations of his wife's repeated and
extensive involvement in january 6.
shouldn't chief justice roberts bench
clarence thomas from at the very least
any cases dealing with the insurrection
or the 2020 election
he should but as joyce said the simple
answers are not often the answers we
seem to pursue i believe we tend to
overthink these things now does the
chief justice have the power the
authority to bench one of the other
justices probably not strictly speaking
but i i think if chief justice roberts
takes seriously the eroding trust that
the american people have in the supreme
court and the confidence that it can
sort of rise above
you know partisan politics and do its
job of dispensing justice equally and
fairly on behalf of the american people
then he better do something because
congress doesn't really have a lot of
power when it comes to you know
installing regulations or rules
governing supreme court justice behavior
it's really up to the supreme court
itself to police its own misbehavior or
bad actors and thus far it's fallen down
on the job and i think chief justice
roberts better try to do whatever he can
do to to try to shore up the public's
perception of the legitimacy of the
supreme court
so joyce new reports indicate that
former attorney general bill barr may
testify before the committee we talked
about it in the intro into the segment
what do you think barr would be willing
to tell the committee and frankly how
self-serving do you think that testimony
would end up being
it will likely be enormously
self-serving barr knows that the one
path forward that he can't take is to
completely flout the committee's
authority because that's the one path
forward that gets folks in trouble with
the justice department his former
employer it's important to remember that
as the attorney general he was not the
president's lawyer there's no sort of
attorney-client relationship he might
have executive privileges that he would
be able to assert but what you're
interested in hearing from bill barr is
why did you leave when you did remember
he left just a few days before christmas
saying he wanted to spend more time with
his family at a point in the year where
doj virtually shuts down for those last
couple of weeks and people in fact go
home to take that time with their
families so that never rang true the
other issue that bill barr if he's
forthcoming could provide a lot of
information on would be president
trump's state of mind because barr was
one of the officials who said we've
looked no fraud involved in this
election and of course a central issue
is whether trump understood that there
was no fraud and continued to try to
hang on to power bill barr if he wanted
to could shed a lot of light on that but
it's unlikely that we'll hear much in
the way of actual apparent truth from
the former attorney general he has too
much invested in the persona that he's
created his ties to folks who are in the
trump side of the equation i think he'll
try to tap dance a straight line up the
middle you know glenn the junior six
committee it has been busy the other
news that we just talked about concerns
georgia representative barry loudermilk
we don't know if the january 6 committee
actually has evidence of congressman
loudermilk giving the tour but he
released a statement and let's be clear
it wasn't a denial he released a
statement about giving a tour to a
family but we know that the committee
has been really diligent in its
investigation the pace seems to be
picking up we've got the public hearings
coming up in june does this news about
loudermilk lead you to believe glenn
that there's actually more to the story
about these tours
you know there clearly is some there
there katie because remember about 16
months ago congressman loudermilk issues
a statement saying i gave no
reconnaissance tours
and then when he seems to be caught at
least based on the january 6 committee's
assertion that we've got the tapes we've
got the goods and we want you to come in
and interview with us he issues another
statement he says well i gave a tour on
january 5th the day before but trust me
it was on the up and up it was just a
constituent family i don't know if
that's a euphemism for insurrectionists
but perhaps we'll find out but why did
he hide for 16 months the fact that at a
time the protocols for covet had the
capital shut down to these kinds of
tours he felt compelled to give one on
january 5th and then hide that fact for
16 months the only remaining question is
will he continue to conceal relevant
information from the committee or will
he comply with the committee's request
and actually testify
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