Speaker 1: It's great to welcome back to the program today, Jack Barsky, who's a retired
and reformed ex undercover KGB agent.
Also author of the great book Deep Undercover My Secret Life and Tangled Allegiances as
a KGB Spy in America, which we spoke with him about in some detail last time and which
I've read and can recommend to you.
Jack, great to have you back on today.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm delighted to be back.
Speaker 1: So I think one of the things that would be interesting to get your thoughts
on would be that there is so much speculation and pontificating on the sort of psychology
of Putin and what has driven this particular invasion of Ukraine at this particular time.
Everything from illness to a desire to restore the former USSR to its former glory, to everything
in between, has been sort of cited.
How were you kind of thinking about the last few months that have taken place there militarily?
Speaker 4: Well, we were talking about the timing.
He's an opportunist.
He perceives weakness in the American government, and up until he did the invasion there was
quite a bit of weakness when in Natal, you know, if you remember that this this controversial
action that Donald Trump took when he went to Europe to Naito and told him to pay up
already and pay the the share that they promised because they were underpaying.
And so Putin has never made a secret out of his long term plan as just the West that didn't
didn't pay attention to it, didn't take it seriously as far as the particularly the U.S.
intelligence services were focused on fighting terrorism and pretty much ignored what's going
on in Russia.
Now, we had a reset with Russia, which was asinine and it didn't work.
That was under Obama.
And then, you know, and then Trump was, you know, blowing smoke.
But but there wasn't really a recognition that this is some sort of a real chance that
this is going to blow.
So and it was I forgot when it was, but sometime in the in the late 2000 tends to 2015 or so.
Putin actually openly declared at a conference in Europe where there were heads of state
that his mission is to reinstate a greater Russia, not the Soviet Union.
Mm hmm.
He he is focused on other Slavic speaking people that would eventually include Poland
and the Czech Republic and and a few others.
But but he wants you know, he's looking at the Russia that Peter the Great ruled that
wasn't a great country either.
But, you know, it's Peter the Great is an icon in Russian history.
And and this this is you know, Putin wants to be seen as the success of Peter the great
good like Peter the Great was a six feet seven tall.
Putin is not.
So and and and most recently two years ago there was a an essay was published by Russian
media.
It was published also in English where he quite.
And it was was signed.
And the author is Vladimir Putin.
Whether he's was to or not, whether or not it was signed.
It was published in his name, where it clearly restated his long term goal.
And so when he invaded Crimea, that was five years ago, I believe.
And the West didn't didn't even, you know, sneeze that there was nothing going on.
He said, well, now is the time to to go into Ukraine and expand our reach.
And that's that's pretty much my my view on things.
Speaker 1: One of the things that has surprised some is that it appears as though Russia may
have misjudged the degree and the scope of Ukrainian resistance.
And what seems maybe surprising about that is that Russia is known for a quite extensive
intelligence service, KGB, which you're very much familiar with other departments as well.
What how could something that from the outside, random people were saying, you know, there
might be more resistance than is assumed.
How how could such an extensive intelligence apparatus misjudge that if they did?
Well.
Speaker 4: Okay.
First of all, the entire world misjudged the will of the Ukrainians to fight, because nobody's
really paying attention.
Nobody's paying attention to history that there has been a intrinsic hatred of of Russia,
everything Russian coming out of Ukraine.
And one of one of the worst things that actually is still sticking in Ukrainians minds, the
history where Stalin went into Ukraine in the early thirties and and and confiscated
all the grain and over 4 million Ukrainians starved to death.
And that is in the part of the world that is the most fertile period.
This this was because Stalin wanted to force collectivization, so and so.
And and there's one thing you got you got to understand is if you invade a country where
everybody is a soldier, not just the men, but the women and the children, you will not,
in the long run, win that war.
We found that out in Vietnam.
We found.
Out in Afghanistan.
Okay.
So but with regard to intelligence services, that's a that's a very interesting subject.
I, I guarantee you there are undercover agents of the Ukraine in Russia and vice versa.
There's a lot of misleading going on.
They can because they you Ukrainians are bilingual, almost all of them.
And Russians have no problem learning to speak Ukrainian because it's just very, very similar.
So you get you get intelligence.
You don't know if it's real or it's from a double agent.
And it goes both ways.
And and the other thing is, assuming that Putin got some decent intelligence, maybe
his his intelligence apparatus, the GRU primarily had the right information.
Did you see that tape where Putin is just treating the head of the SVR, the another
intelligence service?
Like a fourth grader?
Yes.
That guy was shaking in his boots.
So, you know, you may not want to give the boss bad news.
And if you have the courage to do so, the boss may just say, you know, you're foolish.
Sorry.
So it's it's a it's a very fluid situation there.
And and if the Russians didn't have the right intelligence, you know, you can't blame the
CIA either.
Speaker 1: Right.
You know, one of the things that I gathered from reading your book and reading about other
sometimes double agents, former KGB, etc., is that there seems to be a certain level
of paranoia within the apparatus that includes, if I recall correctly, an entire department
that just observes and verifies that KGB agents are not working for some other intelligence
service with that level of paranoia.
What can you deduce about the images, for example, of Putin sitting 40 feet away from
advisors at a table and to talk a little bit about like the psychology of what happens
behind the scenes?
Speaker 4: The paranoia is is inherited.
You know that during the reign of Stalin.
There were periodic purges within the military, within the intelligence services, because
Stalin was the ultimate paranoid individual.
And and so this just became part of the DNA of of the Russian army and and the and and
the intelligence services, because, you know, when the Soviet Union fell apart in the KGB
was dissolved and became three different intelligence services, who trained the new guys?
Who trained the ones that are now in charge?
It's that it's the old KGB.
And they had paranoia in their blood.
And in general, the the the the the Russian DNA period.
It has a paranoid gene, and that's justified.
The Russian state was formed in the Middle Ages, and ever since it came into being and
was always invaded from the north, the Vikings came in from the east, the Mongols from the
West.
That was Napoleon and from the South and was the Turks.
So they were constantly under siege.
And so and that, by the way, that is a platform that or, you know, a history that Putin is
using to tell his people that whatever is wrong with Russia is all it's the West for
the fault of NATO's, the fault of the United States.
And the the United States and NATO's can't wait to just conquer Russia and and, you know,
kill the Russian spirit and destroy the Russian nation.
And they they have bought it.
They actually have bought it.
And, you know, people have ruminated in public, you know, what?
What would it take to get rid of Vladimir Putin?
You don't even want to try because you think you get rid of Putin, that Russia will change
the the Russian nation is severely contaminated and and decontamination is a hard thing to
do.
The the allied fat found it out when when they tried to get the Nazi ideology out of
every German brain after World War Two, it took forever and was not in every case successful.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because while certainly what you say is true, it also seems
as though even within some of Putin's top generals, they're not necessarily thrilled
about this incursion into Ukraine.
And to some degree, it does feel to me that if Putin was killed or died, there would not
be the same interest in continuing this that there is from Putin.
You think that it would not change?
Speaker 4: Well, you're talking about the generals, you know, and this is speculative,
but it seems to make sense to the Russian army has had a lot of losses that weren't
anticipated.
And so if you're a general and you're you're you're involved in that invasion, you can
see that the Russian is being weakened to some degree.
Okay.
But, Don, the there are there are enough hawks in the Putin regime underneath Putin to continue
what he started.
And the Russian people will will not get out in the streets and demonstrate and says, stop
this war.
They will not because they know it's necessary.
You understand also the the whole the whole canard that Russia is fighting Nazis.
It's partially true.
Speaker 1: And in what sense?
Speaker 4: Yes, sir.
And I give you just one item, one fact that you never heard in the mainstream media.
You know, step on Bandera was no stamp on.
Bandera was a Ukrainian Nazi.
He had a he was a he led a Nazi type movement.
And when Hitler came, he joined Hitler with his troops.
And there were a lot of Ukrainian guards in concentration camps and Ukrainians who participate,
participated in and killing Jews.
Okay.
That's a historic fact.
So now here comes the interesting afterthought.
Two years ago, it was upon Banderas 100th birthday.
The Ukrainian government issued commemorative stamps to honor him.
Now there has to be some Nazis, right?
And even up in the government.
No, Zelinsky is not a Nazi for sure.
And those Jewish leave the country is is a Nazi country.
But.
But, you see, if you if you want to sell a big lie, if you have a kernel of truth, it's
so much easier to zoom.
Speaker 1: Jack, how do you see this war concluding?
Because there's the idea that it will only conclude either when Putin is given an exit
that allows him to save face or he dies.
Speaker 4: It will not stop when he dies.
I'm convinced it will go on for a long time.
It's a war of attrition.
So far, Zelinski has indicated that he is not going to give an acre of land.
So until unless he is willing to say, okay, I'm going to let go of Donbas, because there's
still too many Ukrainians dying.
But I, I have a friend who who hails from that region, and he was in an intelligence
in Russia.
And he knows he has a really good understanding of what drives Ukrainians.
They are fighting.
Not for land.
They're fighting for their freedom and for their very existence as a nation.
And as long as that is, as long as they're willing to fight to the death, that that whole
war is going to go on for a long time.
And God forbid, even if Russia takes all of Ukraine and occupies it.
You know what?
You're going to have a guerrilla war like in Vietnam and in Afghanistan.
So there is no at this point, there's no end in sight.
Speaker 1: So the idea that in three months, as a result of negotiations, this could essentially
come to an end.
You don't think there's even a chance of that?
Speaker 4: They're not talking at all.
Speaker 1: Right.
But I mean, even you just don't even think that that's a plausible scenario.
Period.
Speaker 4: Not not not in the near future.
Not not in the next several months.
The the situation in the field would have to change dramatically to go one way or the
other.
Speaker 1: Is there some level of death and destruction for the Russian forces that would
get Putin to say we have to cut our losses and retreat?
Or is that not in his DNA?
Speaker 4: I. And he is on a one way street.
Okay.
And he will he will pulverize the entire country if he can and has to.
Speaker 1: Well, we've been speaking with Jacques Barsky.
We're linking to his book, Retired and Reformed Ex Undercover KGB agent.
Jack, always great speaking with you.
Appreciate your time.
Speaker 4: May I may I just add the fact that there's also a podcast out there.
It's called The Agent.
It's an audio documentary.
It's very well done.
And if you don't want to read the whole book, the story is in that podcast.
And it's it's also told not just by me, but by a lot of people who are important in my
life.
Speaker 1: That's a book.
I recommend the book, but the podcast sounds like it's a way to get a lot a lot of the
same story as well.
Thanks, Jack.
Appreciate it.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Bye bye.