And we go to Rich in Illinois, listening on 88.1 FM. Rich, your comment for Trent
Horn. Yes sir, thanks for taking my call. I think as
long as the society is what it is, that people have different addictions, drug
addictions, alcohol, gambling, you know, the drugs, that these children are not going
to be taken care of. Our hearts are not towards God. He allowed people to come
into power who put these laws into place, so this is the law of the land. If we
just bull-rush this law out, like we just toss it out as like unethical
or whatever, what's gonna happen with all of these children that are not going
to be loved or cared for and neglected, and suddenly you've got people who've
never had to take the responsibility of having a child, and you're going to take
away the right to have an abortion? These people are going to be having children, I
can't [inaudible] than a child growing up that's not loved. Okay Rick, first if you
have your radio on in the background, you might want to turn that down a bit.
And let me see if I understand your position. You talked about how God put
leaders in place and they gave us these laws; are you saying that God wanted it
to be legal for abortion? Or can the leaders God gives us, can they do
something that's wrong, that God doesn't want? Well first of all, our hearts were
wrong towards God, or we wouldn't have had these leaders put in in the first
place. Okay, well I'm not sure what you mean by that. I would agree with you that
all people sin and so none of us perfectly lives according to God's law,
and we need God's grace in order to be restored into relationship with Him; but
I don't see how--we're all sinners, but I don't see how it follows from that,
that because we all need the grace of God, that
because of that, when someone commits a heinous sin, like making it legal to end
a child's life before they are born, we have to simply acquiesce to that. That
doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Rich, would you identify yourself as a
Christian, or...? I would identify myself as a Christian. Okay. Then I would say that
many scripture verses, I would hope they would point you in a different direction
on this. First, Psalm 146:3 says, "Do not put your trust in human princes, in human
beings who can't save," that many of our leaders, you know, do terrible
things and we have to call them out on it. In particular, Proverbs 24:11 tells us to
"Rescue those who are being dragged to death." Proverbs 24:11 says, "Rescue those
who are being dragged to death." So my question is, if someone is going to be
killed, do we stop and say, "Well, are they going to have a good life or a bad life?"
If it's a born person, do we stop and ask if they're gonna have a good life, or do
we just rescue them from being killed, when it's a born person? What do we do in
that case? Well sir, when people sin, they're going to be dragged to their
death. And so when you talk about something like that, there's a spiritual
death and there's a physical death. And if we can stop somebody from the
physical death, by all means we should do it. But what about the
spiritual death? You see, these people are on their way to death anyway, until they
turn their hearts back towards God. Who are you talking--are you--
Rich, are you talking about the people who are having abortions? No, there--
abortion is not necessarily the worst thing out there. I'll agree with you, it's
not necessarily the worst thing out there, but I would say ending the life of
a small child has got to be up in the top five,
what would you say? Well, I would say that the people having the
abortions have got other problems than just the
abortion. You're looking at this from the abortion side, and I'm saying there's a
big battle that's already been lost. Right, but how does it follow, Rich, that--
Nebuchadnezzar is a good example of what I'm talking
about in the Bible. Daniel made it very clear that nobody comes to power on
their own. We don't vote in our presidents. If we voted in someone God
didn't want in power, he'd never take office. It's very clear. These things are--
because our hearts are towards destruction, he puts people--God allows
people to come into power that will lead us into destruction. But Rich, does
God give us the choice and the moral duty to oppose
those leaders when they harm innocent people? Well, I'll put it to you this way,
sir: if I could help a woman who was pregnant with some finances or a place
to stay or anything in that realm to help her in order to keep the
kid, I would do it. If she wanted that or needed that help. On the same hand, if
there's a woman who wants to go and has made this decision to go in and get
herself an abortion, I would defend her right, having been in the military, this
is the law of the land, people don't have a right until this is overturned.
So Rich, 150 years ago when it was legal to own a slave, and
let's say--it sounds like you have a charitable, compassionate heart--that if
we transported you back in time 150 years ago, you could either--if you wanted
to, you would buy a slave and set them free, but if somebody wants to take their
slave and they need your help to get the slave onto their plantation, you would
help them because it's the law of the land. Rich, would you
have assisted slavery 150 years ago simply because it was
the law of the land? That's a rough question, buddy. Depends on who the person was who
wanted the help, and I would try to
treat that person with as much dignity and respect as they were due,
as-- Are you talking about the slave, Rich? Absolutely. Okay. Well, I would say it's
not a rough question, actually, that people have a right to be free, and
so we should help those who are enslaved, and we help those who are enslaved by
making slavery illegal. And people have a right to live, and we can help unborn
babies whose right to life is threatened by assisting their mothers, but also at a
larger level, making it illegal to harm those babies. And just because God
gave us leaders--leaders can sin, and we have to hold those leaders accountable
because God will hold us accountable.