>>> PERSPECTIVE FROM CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT
JONATHAN KARL, WHO WROTE ABOUT MUCH OF THIS IN HIS BOOK
"BETRAYAL: THE FINAL ACT OF THE TRUMP SHOW."
SO, THERE ARE A LOT OF DETAILS IN YOUR BOOK ABOUT CONVERSATIONS
ABOUT INVOKING THE 25th AMENDMENT.
HOW SERIOUS WERE THEY? WHERE DID THEY START?
WHO TALKED TO WHOM? >> TO ME, THE MOST AMAZING
REVELATION WAS THE CONVERSATIONS INCLUDED THE TWO MOST SENIOR
PEOPLE IN TRUMP'S CABINET AT THE TIME, TREASURY SECRETARY MNUCHIN
AND SECRETARY OF STATE MIKE POMPEO.
THESE ARE NOT ONLY THE TWO SENIOR PEOPLE LEFT IN THE
CABINET, THEY WERE TWO TRUMP TOTAL LOYALISTS.
AND THEY, I LEARNED, HAD A CONVERSATION SOMETIME LATE IN
THE EVENING ON JANUARY 6th, WHERE THEY TALKED ABOUT THE 25th
AMENDMENT. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS A PATH THAT WAS
NOT TAKEN. BUT THE MERE FACT THAT THEY WERE
EVEN RAISING THIS AS A POSSIBILITY -- AND THINK BT WHAT
IT MEANS. YOU'RE REMOVING A PRESIDENT
BECAUSE YOU ARE DECLARING HIM MENTALLY UNFIT TO BE IN OFFICE.
AND NOW WE'VE LEARNED SUBSEQUENTLY FROM THE JANUARY 6
HEARINGS, TESTIMONY OF CASSIDY HUTCHINSON AND OTHERS, THAT
THERE WAS REAL FEAR THAT THAT OPTION COULD BE PURSUED.
AND THEY WERE USING THAT AS A WAY TO PRESSURE TRUMP TO FINALLY
COME OUT AND GIVE A STATEMENT TO CONDEMN THE RIOT.
>> AND SEAN HANNITY IN A TEXT TO MARK MEADOWS OR MAYBE KAYLEIGH
McENANY, WAS SAYING THE 25th AMENDMENT TALK IS REAL.
OBVIOUSLY IT FIZZLED OUT. DO YOU KNOW HOW SERIOUS ANYBODY
WAS ABOUT IT? >> WELL, THE MOST SERIOUS IT
GOT, AS I WAS TOLD, THAT POMPEO ACTUALLY ASKED A LAWYER TO
EXPLAIN HOW IT ALL WORKED. SO, THEY GOT TO THE POINT OF AT
LEAST LOOKING INTO WHAT THE PROCESS WOULD BE.
I THINK THEY PRETTY QUICKLY REALIZED IT WAS NOT GOING TO
WORK. FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAD CABINET
SECRETARIES RESIGN. YOU HAD DeVOS, ELAINE CHAO.
SO, OBVIOUSLY THOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN TWO VOTES FOR INVOKING THE
25th AMENDMENT, AND THEY WERE NOW GONE.
AND THERE WAS ALSO A PROBLEM BECAUSE THE LAW IS NOT ENTIRELY
CLEAR ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT ACTING SECRETARIES WOULD BE
INCLUDED. WOULD THEY BE INCLUDED FIRST OF
ALL IN THE TOTAL THAT YOU NEED THE MAJORITY OF.
WOULD THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE?
AND TRUMP HAD SO MANY ACTING SECRETARIES, THEY KNEW WHATEVER
ROUTE YOU CHOSE, IT WOULD BE SUBJECT TO LEGAL CHALLENGE.
IF YOU INCLUDED THE ACTING, TRUMP COULD CHALLENGE IT
LEGALLY. THE PROCESS OF ARGUING OUT IN
COURT, HE ONLY HAD TWO WEEKS LEFT IN OFFICE.
SO, THAT'S WHY IT FIZZLED OUT. IT WAS GOING TO TAKE TOO MUCH
TIME. >> IT WOULD BE FASCINATING JUST
TO KNOW THE DETAILS OF IT. IT'S THE KIND OF THING -- YOU
KNOW, IT'S LIKE PLANNING A COUP AGAINST SOMEBODY.
YOU'RE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHO'S THINKING THE SAME THING.
>> WHO'S GOING TO RAT YOU OUT? >> AND WHO'S GOING TO RAT YOU
OUT, YEAH. >> YEAH.
>> THE -- IT'S ALSO UNCLEAR NOW IF POMPEO TALKS TO THE JANUARY 6
COMMITTEE, HOW FORTHCOMING HE MIGHT BE.
>> YEAH, THAT'S -- >> GIVEN HE HAS HIS OWN
PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS. >> WHICH IS COMPLICATED.
FIRST OF ALL, HE'S GOT HIS OWN PRESIDENTIAL AMBITIONS, AND HE
WANTS TO RUN AS THE CANDIDATE OF THE TRUMP MOVEMENT.
BUT, YOU KNOW, HE ALSO WANTS TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT.
AND ONE PERSON THAT WOULD STAND IN THE WAY IS DONALD TRUMP.
SO, IT'S COMPLICATED. BUT I'M FASCINATED TO SEE WHAT
POMPEO WILL SAY ASSUMING THEY GET HIM TO COME IN, HE TAKES THE
OATH. HOW DOES HE ANSWER THE QUESTION?
AS I WAS REPORTING ON THIS, TRY IED DESPERATELY TO GET HIM TO TO
ASK HIM ABOUT THIS, AND I KEPT ON GETTING PUSHED OFF.
I KEPT ON GETTING PUSHED YOU HAVE A.
HIS SPOKESPERSON AT FIRST SAID, OH, NO, NO, NO, NOTHING EVER
HAPPENS. CAN YOU TELL ME THAT ON THE
RECORD? I'LL PUT IT IN.
GIVE ME A DENIAL. I'LL PUT IT IN.
MY CALLS WEREN'T RETURNED FOR LITERALLY MONTHS.
MY LAST CONVERSATION FOR THE BOOK WITH DONALD TRUMP OVER THE
PHONE -- I ASKED HIM ABOUT THIS. HE SAID, OH, THAT'S RIDICULOUS,
NEVER HAPPENED. I SAID, WHY HAS MIKE POMPEO NOT
DENIED IT? >> HOW DID HE RESPOND TO THAT?
>> OH, YOU KNOW -- HE DIDN'T REALLY -- IT'S TOTALLY NONSENSE.
THEY ALL -- AND THEN I GOT A CALL WITHIN AN HOUR OF TRUMP
HANGING UP -- AND HE DID HANG UP ON ME IN THAT CONVERSATION AT
THE END OF THE CALL -- WITH A SPOKESPERSON FOR MIKE POMPEO WHO
HAD BEEN AVOIDING ME FOR MONTHS SAYING, OKAY, I'VE GOT SOMETHING
FOR YOU FROM A SPOKESPERSON -- HE WOULD NOT ALLOW ME TO USE HIS
NAME WHEN IT HAPPENED -- FROM A SPOKESPERSON, THERE WERE NO
CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE 25th AMENDMENT.
THERE WERE. IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT
HE SAYS WHEN HIS HAND IS ON THE BIBLE.
>> DO YOU THINK HE COULD OFFER VALUABLE TESTIMONY?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK FIRST OF ALL ON THAT, YOU KNOW, HEARING
DIRECTLY FROM HIM -- I KNOW THEY'VE ALSO SPOKEN TO MNUCHIN.
AGAIN, THEY DIDN'T PURSUE IT. SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S THAT.
BUT THE MERE FACT THAT HIS TWO TOP GUYS TALKED ABOUT IT AS A
POSSIBILITY IS AN AMAZING INSIGHT INTO HOW WORRIED THEY
WERE THAT TRUMP HAD COMPLETELY LOST CONTROL.
SO, THAT WILL BE INTERESTING. BUT HE IS A -- HE IS A TOTAL
TRUMP LOYALIST. I THINK ONE OTHER THING HE CAN
TALK ABOUT IS THE CONCERN THAT THE PENTAGON HAD GONE OFF THE
RAILS. YOU REMEMBER TRUMP HAD FIRED THE
CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP OF THE PENTAGON, PUT IN A GROUP OF
PEOPLE THAT HE BELIEVED WERE TOTAL LOYALISTS.
AND I KNOW THAT POMPEO -- THE ONLY THING I REPORTED IN THE
BOOK IS THAT POMPEO AT ONE POINT CALLED BILL BARR SAYING, I'M
REALLY WORRIED ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON AT THE PENTAGON.
THERE WAS CONCERNS ABOUT STRIKES AGAINST IRAN.
WHAT WOULD TRUMP TRY TO DO DURING THE LAME DUCK PERIOD?
HOW WOULD HE CREATE AN INTERNATIONAL CRISIS AS A WAY TO
STAY IN POWER? THERE WERE REAL CONCERNS.
AND POMPEO AT ONE POINT CALLED BARR AND ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT.
I LEARNED THAT DIRECTLY FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT CONVERSATION.
SO, IT'LL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF POMPEO WILL ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.
>> JONATHAN KARL, THANK SO MUCH. >>> MORE ON THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATION AND HOW HARD THEY'RE PREPARING TO GET
THERE. KAITLAN POLANDS HAS BEEN TALKING
TO HER SOURCES, JOINS US NOWS. WALK US THROUGH THIS COURT
BATTLE OVER EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE. >> ANDERSON, TODAY, WE ARE
LEARNING THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS GEARING UP TO GET
READY TO GO TO COURT, AS THEY'RE INVESTIGATING FOR POSSIBLE
CRIMINALITY, JANUARY 6 AND THE PRESIDENCY.
SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT EVAN PEREZ, ANOTHER REPORTER HERE AND
I, WERE LEARNING TODAY FROM SEVERAL SOURCES IS THAT WHAT THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTORS AND P INVESTIGATORS WANT TO GET
ACCESS TO NOW IS CONVERSATIONS THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS HAVING IN
THE WHITE HOUSE IN THE DAYS BEFORE JANUARY 6th AND JANUARY
6th ITSELF. SO, WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE, THE
REASON THIS IS ARISING, IS THAT THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE WHO WENT TO
THE GRAND JURY IN RECENT WEEKS, MARC SHORT, GREG JACOB, BOTH
WORKED UNDER MIKE PENCE IN THE OFFICE OF THE VICE PRESIDENT.
AND THEY HAD CERTAIN THINGS THAT THEY COULDN'T TALK ABOUT.
EITHER THEY NEGOTIATED BEFORE GOING INTO THE GRAND JURY.
YOU KNOW, THEY THINK THOSE THINGS MIGHT BE OFF LIMITS
BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP MIGHT WANT TO CLAIM PREVALENT.
OR THEY PRESENT TO THE GRAND JURY AND THEY DECLINED TO ANSWER
THE QUESTIONS. SO, NOW WE ARE SEEING THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LEADING UP TO A MOMENT WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO
WANT TO CHALLENGE THESE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE CLAIMS THAT
DONALD TRUMP MIGHT TRY TO WAIT TO GET THEM WIPED AWAY SO THAT
THEY AREN'T STANDING IN THE WAY FROM GAINING THOSE FACTS FROM
WITNESSES LIKE SHORT AND JACOB. SO, THIS WOULD TAKE IT INTO A
NEW AGGRESSIVE PHASE BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SEEN A COURT BATTLE LIKE
THIS RELATED TO JANUARY 6th AND THE POWERS OF THE PRESIDENCY,
THE SEPARATION OF POWERS. >> THE QUESTION IS, OF COURSE,
HOW LONG THAT COURT BATTLE MIGHT TAKE.
THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN ONE OF THE THINGS WHEN THE QUESTION WOULD
THE JANUARY 6th COMMITTEE BRING PEOPLE TO COURT ON EXECUTIVE
PRIVILEGE CLAIM. >> THAT'S RIGHT.
SO, RIGHT NOW IT COULD TAKE A LONG TIME.
THE COURTS MOVE SLOWLY IN SOME INSTANCES, FAST IN OTHERS.
IN A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION LIKE THIS, THERE ARE LOTS OF JUDGES
OUT THERE THAT WOULD SAY, YES, WE WOULD WANT TO MOVE VERY FAST
ON SOMETHING LIKE THIS. BUT WHAT THIS DOES TELL US, AS
WHERE THINGS STAND RIGHT NOW, IS THAT MARC SHORT AND GREG JACOB
GOING INTO THE GRAND JURY NOT ANSWERING ALL THE QUESTIONS,
CLEARLY THE PROSECUTORS DON'T HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS HERE AND
DON'T HAVE EVERYTHING THEY WANT OUT OF THIS PIECE OF
INVESTIGATION. SO, THERE WOULD BE A WAYS TO GO
TO FIGURE THIS OUT AND TO POTENTIALLY GET MORE
INFORMATION. WE ARE ALSO LEARNING ABOUT A LOT
OF INVESTIGATIVE WORK THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS DOING,
THAT THEY'RE OBTAINING THE CELL PHONE OF JOHN EASTMAN.
NOW, AS OF JULY 12th, THEY'RE GETTING TO LOOK THE CONTENTS OF
THAT. WE'RE REPORTING TONIGHT SOMEONE
WORKING WITH JEFFREY CLARK, WHO WAS WORKING WITH TRUMP AT THE
JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, HE WAS SEARCHED.
AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS NAILING DOWN WHAT CASSIDY
HUTCHINSON, THAT KEY WITNESS IN THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
INVESTIGATION, WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY, THAT SHE'S NOW ALSO IN
TOUCH WITH JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATORS SOCHL, ICE ALL
COMING TOGETHER, BUT WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHERE IT'S GOING OR
HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE. >> FINALLY ON THE EXECUTIVE
PRIVILEGE THINGS, I'M NOT SURE ANYBODY KNOWS THIS.
BUT IF IT'S MARC SHORT'S CLAIMS OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE THAT GOES
TO COURT AND A JUDGE RULES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, DOES THAT
RULING EXTEND TO ALL OTHER PEOPLE IN THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S
ORBIT AND THEIR CLAIMS OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE?
OR WOULD THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAVE TO BRING EACH INDIVIDUALS'
CLAIMS THE COURT? >> WELL, WE WOULD HAVE TO SEE
HOW THIS CASE ITSELF WOULD PLAY OUT.
THERE'S LOTS OF DIFFERENT POSTURES.
BUT IN THIS SORT OF CIRCUMSTANCE, IT WOULD BE DONALD
TRUMP'S CLAIM OF EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.
AND WE'VE BEEN THROUGH COURT CASES LIKE THIS IN THE PAST, IN
THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.
THERE REALLY HASN'T BEEN ONE LITIGATED ABOUT A FORMER
PRESIDENT TRYING TO MAKE A CLAIM THAT'S DIFFERENT THAN THE
SITTING PRESIDENT, WHERE JOE BIDEN IS SAYING THEY'RE NOT
GOING TO ASSERT PRIVILEGE. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR
SITUATION, IN THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION, THEY TRIED TO
KEEP THE TAPES OF WATERGATE, THE WATERGATE TAPES, PRIVATE FROM
THE GRAND JURY. THE COURT SAID, NO, THERE WASN'T
GOING TO BE EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE PROTECTING THAT.
AND THEN IT CAME UP AGAIN TWICE IN THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.
THERE WAS A WHITE HOUSE LAWYER WHO WANTED TO CLAIM SOME
PRIVILEGES. THE COURTS ULTIMATELY DIDN'T
SIDE WITH THE WHITE HOUSE IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES EITHER.
>> INTERESTING. >> SO, OUR REPORTING, ANDERSON,
IS THAT THERE ARE OFFICIALS OVERSEEING THIS INVESTIGATION
WHO BELIEVE THAT WHEN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT BRINGS THIS
AND LITIGATES IT, THEY WILL ULTIMATELY WIN.
>> THAT WOULD BE HUGE. APPRECIATE IT.