What a
difference this year
has made for Ukraine.
Just last December,
President Volodymyr
Zelensky was warmly received
in a rare joint session of Congress.
Our two nations
are allies in this battle,
and next year will be a turning point.
I know the point when Ukrainian courage
and American resolve
must guarantee the future of our common
freedom,
the freedom of people who stand
for their values.
But if this year has been
a turning point,
it is turning in the wrong direction.
Here's President Zelensky
at a press conference in Kiev,
sounding less than confident
about continued American support.
Tocilizumab.
Talking about financial aid.
While we're working very hard on this,
and I'm certain
that the United States of America
will not betray us
and that on which we agreed
and the United States
will be fulfilled complicit.
Why the change?
Republican resistance
to funding Ukraine
has hardened
from no blank checks to no checks at all.
Congress has adjourned
without passing critically needed funding
for this battle for democracy.
And in Europe.
Hungary's Viktor
Orban blocked $50 billion in EU aid.
Now military planners are considering
the worst case scenario
that Ukraine, without Western aid, loses
to Russia, perhaps even by this summer.
My guest,
Jens Stoltenberg, wrestles
with all of this as NATO's
secretary general,
and he tells me that support for Ukraine
is in fact a vital investment
for the United States
in the face of Putin's direct
threat to the democratic world.
Secretary General,
welcome to the program.
Do you expect that
by the end of this year
things would be so dire and maybe Putin
will be proved right
to have said that he
can wait out the West?
I'm always very careful
predicting about wars
because wars are,
by nature, unpredictable.
And most experts
were very wrong
at the beginning of the war because then
we failed.
And many experts believed that
Russia will
take control over here within days
and that Ukraine will collapse
within weeks.
That didn't happen.
The Ukrainians
has been able to push back
the Russian invaders
in the north, in the east
and in the south.
But of course, now
we see that
the frontlines
have not changed in
any significant way over the last year.
And therefore, it's
even more important that we
very clearly
continue to provide
support to Ukraine because
they need our support to be able to
prevail as a sovereign,
independent nation in Europe.
So what is your reaction then
to the US Congress?
You know,
not voting on this package to the EU,
not voting on this package
and to, you know, American policy
anyway, Western policymakers saying
that Ukraine's going to lose
if it doesn't get this.
Do you share
that concern that it will lose
if it doesn't get the critical aid
that it needs very soon?
Of course, it would have been
much better if the US Congress
could have decided on a new package
or a new allocation of money
to to Ukraine before Christmas.
At the same time, I continue to count
on the United States
and the US Congress to agree
a substantial package for Ukraine
because this is not charity.
This is not only something we do to
support Ukraine,
we do it
because it is an investment
in our own security.
And we have to remember
that if President Putin wins, it's
not only tragedy for
Ukrainians is also dangerous for us.
We become more vulnerable
because then
the message to President
Putin
is that when he uses military force,
he gets what he wants.
And this is also very closely watched
in Beijing.
So this is
in our security interest
and the security interests
of United States
to invest in the defense of Ukraine.
So to that point,
let me play something
that President Zelensky said
while he was,
you know,
trying to try to persuade the West
that they needed the aid.
He he sort of said what you said,
if you know, if
if Ukraine loses,
who knows what's going to happen next.
If Russia will kill all of us,
they will attack major countries
and you will send your
your sons and daughters
and it will be I'm sorry,
but the price will be higher.
So and you said last week
and let me get this straight.
If Putin wins in Ukraine,
there is a real risk
that his aggression will not end there.
And, you know, President
Biden has said something similar.
Putin says that's nonsense.
But what do you say to,
you know, to this fear that it
won't stop in Ukraine?
We don't see an imminent
threat against a NATO ally, the country.
But what we see is that if
Russian President Putin wins in Ukraine,
then, of course,
we see a pattern
of forces in Moldova and Moldova,
and they invaded Georgia.
We see the brutality of the Russian
forces in Syria
and then they annexed Crimea in 2014.
They went into eastern Donbas in 2014.
And then if they then are able
to take the rest of Ukraine,
then of course, the lesson for them
is that they can violate
international law,
they can use military force,
they can invade neighbors,
and they get what they want.
And that's a very dangerous lesson.
I've asked you many times
and I've asked
many other leaders many times
in the two years of this war,
you know,
why hasn't more
that's been promised
got to Ukraine in the right time
when it could have actually used it,
when it could have
actually taken advantage
of its strength on the on the ground.
And there's
a major new article in Time magazine
that is now asking
the very same question, in fact,
saying that President Biden's
and the Biden administration's slow. Yes.
And NATO's slow yes.
To Ukrainian requests
for weapons systems
and especially ammunition
is has has led to this point
where Russia has been able to capitalize
and to dig in
and and this state of attrition
right now.
They invaded
they they used military force
against a neighbor which have in no way
been a threat to them.
We can always discuss
if it was possible to do even more
from our side
earlier in providing support to
to Ukraine.
But what is clear
is that the United States
and NATO allies
have provided
unprecedented support to Ukraine
in the beginning with its light weapons,
like the
anti-tank weapons, the javelins
and and
and all the types of anti-tank weapons
that made a huge difference.
The first weeks,
then with heavy artillery
and then with advanced
air defense systems and now also
with cruise
missiles, long range cruise missiles.
And we have started the training of F-16
pilots and F-16
planes will soon be delivered.
So this is the reason why actually
the Ukrainians have achieved a lot.
They have been able to liberate 50%
of the territory that the Russians
occupied at the beginning of the war.
But nothing
since nothing in the last year.
And and I guess my question is,
what is your what is your plan B?
Because the plan is to continue
to support Ukraine,
because we know that
the only way to end this war
in a way that ensures
that Ukraine prevails is that we
convince President Putin
that he will not win on the battlefield.
And the only way of convincing him
is to ensure
that Ukraine has the weapons
and ammunition, has the forces they need
to continue to push back Russian forces.
And yes, sure,
you are right
that the frontlines have not changed
significantly over the last year.
But but Ukrainians have been able
to inflict heavy losses
on the Russian forces.
So Russia is paying a
price on the battlefield
and they have been able
to take control over parts of the of
the Black Sea
and push back to the Black Sea,
Russian navy.
So they are able to export
goods and grain out of as possible
and out of Ukraine.
So next year is going to be
really challenging then.
Jens Stoltenberg,
thank you so much for joining us.