Hello, this is Michael Campbell with Glossika I'm honored today to be able to sit down with
Professor Tim Keeley who teaches cross cultural management here
in Japan. And it's an honor to be here and meet you
in person. What's really amazing about Professor Keeley
is that he has experienced with over 50 languages from around the world and speaks many of those
fluently And he's an expert on Asian languages
But not only that he's also a teacher of cross cultural communication
in business So I'm curious to know
along with our audience what are some of the things that you can share
share with us about perhaps communication in Japan and the business context?
Because I've heard that the Japanese are very effective in communication by using indirect
speech. So give us a real quick introduction to this.
Okay, so let me talk about two concepts first One is high context and low context cultures
and communication. This is originally from Professor Hall in
the 1960s. And he was writing specifically about Japan
and Germany in this case comparing them. High context situation, in general
is where you share a lot of background. So, the highest context you may get is
within your family, close friends, relatives, etc.
And now, when we look at a country level, then we can talk about high context,
national culture and a low context or any way in between.
Japan is a very high context culture. Another example is Korea.
And they tend to be collectivist societies compared to individualistic oriented societies
like America or Australia. So by collectivist societies,
we mean that it's fairly homogeneous in terms of people's background is more or
less the same same ethnicity,
speak the same language, have the same type of experiences and education,
and work, etc even though there may be regional differences.
But if you look at a place like United States, You have many immigrants,
many different languages being used many different cultures and so
and ways of expression, ways of expression etc.
So you actually kind of need in a national level
you need a collectivist culture, in order to have a high context communication,
because they need shared knowledge. They need shared values, shared norms,
and other words, ways patterns of behavior with that are acceptable by society
In a certain given situation. So with that talking about Japan
that would mean that Japanese when doing business with one another
have this shared cultural background but it's a background in which I said
a lot of shared knowledge about norms in homogeneity in other words
not a lot of diversity in behavior and norms, etc.
Then you have your loose collective like Thailand's collectivist culture,
but they are not as tight as Japan Type meaning you don't allow deviation
you don't accept people doing things that are really deviate from the norm.
I noticed when I walk down the street in Japan and I'm eating
people get me a lot of looks. So I'm deviating from normal behavior.
不行、不行 (“No! No!” in Chinese)
I shouldn't do that right. 不應該做的 (“You shouldn’t do that”
in Chinese) So I shouldn't
you shouldn't be doing that. Okay So that's an example.
I look like a foreigner
I'm already getting attention from people but then I did it in a deviant way and I get
even more attention
Yeah, and let's say that Taiwanese is walking down the street
And we love to eat Right and they're doing the same.
We're getting used to… my wife would come home and say
I was in 天神 today, and there were a lot of Asians
and she's referring to other Asians besides Japanese
And she notices not by just hearing the speech but by the way they walk
the way they move, whether they're eating in public
how loud their voices are, etc. There's different norms that comes..
Yeah, they definitely stick out Though Korean culture is the closest to Japanese
culture of any other culture. You can see it in the way the language is
structured, etc. Still Korean behavior sometimes a little bit
different, and it's noticed, but mainly it sticks out in case of Asians
with Chinese Now interesting enough, though, I've taught
the EMBA programs in Shanghai in Taipei,
and they are very different in their culture.
So actually, a lot of Taiwanese have Japanese type behavior
due to the relationship which I'm sure your listeners who from Taiwan
definitely know about.
So they are always ready for class had read everything.
Oh, we got this two weeks ago.
I didn't know that. I could give you a whole story about how that
works. But we'll leave that aside and get back to
the question. I'm going off in all these directions, but
at least I wanted to establish with everybody this concept of high context communication
and low context communication And high context communication means that
you have a lot of shared values, knowledge, etc.
A lot of background, history
So to follow up here you just mentioned that Thailand has
loose Collective Culture So this means that deviant behavior is acceptable
in Thai culture?
Yeah, when we use the word deviant And I’m not saying it in a negative way
I meant that way too But yeah
they're more accepting just like the sexuality in Thailand,
you have more openness, gay people and such.
They're in between India and China. And you can see that in the culture.
And you can see in religion Buddhism and Hinduism mixed together.
So I'm curious because you have the, you know,
you have all of this experience with teaching people about the business environment.
So do you have a specific examples, perhaps from maybe even in the use of the
Japanese language where this indirect communication comes across
as misunderstood by those
am I, am I actually saying what I'm meaning or am I saying the opposite of what I mean?
It totally depends and that's why you First of all, there's another concept in Japanese
it's called 建前 (たてまえ) 本音 (ほんね) 建前 (たてまえ) is for public consumption
and 本音 (ほんね) is what you're actually thinking
In the West, when you look at it you might say they're being dishonest
No, they're not being dishonest. It’s a white lie.
So, your girlfriend your wife says, Do I look good in this?
and then you’d say great, honey you know, it's a white lie type of thing.
I'll give you an example of cases where there's a misunderstanding between Japanese
and foreigners and they could even be Asian or Western.
So the degree of miscommunication depends on
the distance of the culture and some other factors.
But one common one is just in speaking Japanese. ‘
It's polite that you are an active listener. And my wife sometimes complains,
because she says something and I don't react. According to her say, はい, そう...
Though I've lived here most of my life you shouldn't be doing it.
So I have to be an active listener. And I have to acknowledge what you're saying
by some type of そうですね So what happens?
Well, people are, let's say you were having a business meeting,
and you're the foreigner. And so you don't know that much about Japan.
And you don't speak Japanese. And I'm saying to you, Mr. foreigner.
You're explaining your proposal, and I はい, はい
So should I feel like it’s difficult for me to go through to you?
So interpreter keeps saying.. So he’s saying
Was he saying? Yes? Yes
He's not saying yes, yes. He's saying I can hear you.
I'm listening to you. That is obviously, in Japanese when I say
はい, はい It only means I heard you.
It doesn't mean I agree.
It’s like saying, right, right, right.
Yeah, yeah, As I was just doing
Yeah, this is something that it's like sort of like
But we, the way we do it in our culture, like Western culture is like, let's say North
American culture. The word we use to respond is going to give
some pretty good indication of how they're reacting
In Japanese, they want to hide their emotion there, right?
But if they're really excited about you, you should be able to read it, read it on
their face. So the problem is t
he foreigners and sometimes interpreters unable to explain to the foreigner about the
atmosphere
They are reading the atmosphere and so on and on
you explain it and the whole time I was you were told I was saying yes yes yes.
And at the end that I just say xxx So for now
we are going to take a very positive look at this
Okay, so if that's interpreted to you wow this is great.
But the interpreter if he’s a Japanese they should know
that's probably that might have been get the way outta here
we have no time that's enough you know
we're not interested
but you can kind of see from your body language.
You can but you are the foreigner who doesn’t know Japanese body language
I have been living in Asia for a long time
No, no, but we You are the foreigner now
you are not Michael Campbell
I'm not allowed to
Okay, so I'm using not I'm not using you as who you are
because that would be crazy you have similar experience
The average person The average person who
first coming to Japan cannot read their body language.
It depends
I think Westerners do have this body language to some extent.
Sure we do.
It's never as you know, it's never people exaggerate when they say
Oh, it's so different. So I teach at Kyushu Sangyo University Business
School. And I have right now,
I teach on Wednesday evenings. And I have about 18 to 20 Chinese in my class
and well, I have about 14 or so from mainland I have four Taiwanese,
I have some Filipinos and such. So, when I am using examples of countries
and discussing these concepts, when it comes to communication and lecture,
this certain area, Chinese put in much more direct than Japan
much, much more so, and actually Thai and Indonesians are much
more indirect, not much more
More indirect then Japanese Oh oh
That's amazing Indonesian?
Yes, yes. In what sort of a context?
Not giving negative information
So a common would be like Japanese, boss and Indonesia.
I want you to get this report done by next week,
it has to be translated into English, you can handle that, right?
And they don't want to say they can't do it So, you know,
and they're not going to really ask any questions. And so, and even Chinese, Singaporean won't
ask the boss question
So are they more likely to default on the I’m sorry, but not default
but like not actually finished the job?
Right Because they couldn't do it.
So there's a Japanese come back Why have you done and then it's admit time
Well, I really kind of have a problem with Why didn't you tell me a week ago when I asked
you to do it? You see, so in Japan,
they would be more likely to let the boss know
that they wouldn't be up for it.
How would the Japanese person present this problem to the boss
When they ask, it would be a little bit more open communication
as they would say, like, first of all, you hear a lot ちょっと
ちょっと means wait a second In this case, it has so many possible meanings.
Wait a second, or Attention Attention Attention You know, like, for a second
Yeah, you know, when I say ちょっとas a Japanese,
you should read that I'm trying to communicate something to you.
That is maybe a little bit hard for me to communicate
and trying to say no, for indicators of difficulty
Now it's my responsibility This is high context communication
So now the responsibility shifts for me to find out what's bothering you.
So in US culture, North America and some European cultures,
you would come out and right away and say, well, I really don't think I'm able
to ... But now Japanese is first…
they're going to also you need this
That's how our team does it in Taiwan.
They just come out and tell you You need to groan and groan and ちょっと
And then the more groanings the more ちょっと The more I know,
I have to dig in deep and I have to give you a way to tell me
So if you're doing a written communication through email, you obviously can't express
these kinds of
No, written communication in Japanese you lose quite a lot
Because it depends on who you are writing to
You have to be Wow, it's like you are in communication with
French where somebody is saying
My dear esteemed and all this stuff and in this case were foreigners thinks that
like let's say it's a male that's interested in
females and females writing
and they think they fall in love with the guy or something
I've seen that as an example in the cross cultural communication area
MisunderstandING
Okay, so it's no no, this is just the way we address people.
Okay. So when we acquire language of course, It’s a fantastic tool,
some people are unable to use spoken language So they use sign language
or they use written language in many ways to communicate,
but language allows us to label concrete things and non concrete things
and show relationships among them, etc, through syntax and grammar, and so on and
so on.
So it's a very sophisticated way of communication. And so of course,
that means we want to know more and more about language
in terms of vocabulary, syntax, but if you've done that without knowing the
social, cultural context of language,
you're going to have some difficulties at times in communication.
So I say those people who ignore it's hard to ignore the culture.
If you're reading a novel, you get the culture
If you're watching a TV show, in that language,
you're getting the culture and interaction, you're getting the culture, but let's just
balance your understanding about the cultural context and the language,
vocabulary and grammar.
Well, thank you, Tim Kelley, for today's talk
It’s such a pleasure to hear
I've been looking forward to meeting you I think we've we've been in contact I guess,
on and off for about eight years, maybe or something like that.