>>> WHILE THE NATION FOCUSES ON THE CRISIS AT THE BORDER,
PRESSURE ON PRESIDENT TRUMP’S
FORMER FIXER HAS BEEN MOUNTING.
THIS WEEK, WE SAW REPORTS THAT
MICHAEL COHEN IS CONSIDERING
FLIPPING, AND WE LEARNED HE
WANTS THE PRESIDENT TO FOOT THE
BILL FOR HIS LEGAL FEES.
COHEN ALSO QUIT THE RNC AND
OPENLY CRITICIZED TRUMP’S
IMMIGRATION POLICY.
IMMIGRATION POLICY. AND NOW WE’RE LEARNING NEWDY
TAILS ABOUT TRUMP’S COZY
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE "NATIONAL
ENQUIRER."
ENQUIRER." "THE WASHINGTON POST" REPORTING
THE TABLOID SENT STORIES ABOUT
TRUMP TO COHEN BEFORE THEY WENT
TO PRINT.
TO PRINT. THEN COHEN SEEN SMILING WITH
TRUMP ENEMY TOM ARNOLD, WHO IS
WORKING ON A NEW SHOW FOCUSED ON
OBTAINING DAMAGING TRUMP TAPES.
ARNOLD FURTHER FUELED
SPECULATION TONIGHT THAT COHEN
MAY BE WORKING AGAINST HIS
FORMER BOSS.
FORMER BOSS. >> I’M GOING TO SPEND THE
WEEKEND WITH MICHAEL COHEN, AND
THE PRESIDENT, DONALD TRUMP,
IVANKA TRUMP, I’M SPENDING THE
WEEKEND HANGING OUT WITH MICHAEL
COHEN.
COHEN. ANDERS THAT A
AND THERE’S A LOT GOING ON.
>> DID MICHAEL COHEN TELL YOU
SPECIFICALLY, YES OR NO, THAT HE
IS COOPERATING WITH THE
AUTHORITIES SHOULD CHARGES BE
BROUGHT?
BROUGHT? >> DID HE TELL YOU?
DO YOU NOT WANT TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION?
QUESTION? >> NO.
>> NO. >> YOU DON’T WANT TO ANSWER THE
QUESTION?
QUESTION? >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> COHEN THEN DOWNPLAYED THE
CLAIMS ON TWITTER TONIGHT,
WRYING THIS WAS A CHANCE PUBLIC
ENCOUNTER IN THE HOTEL LOBBY
WHERE HE ASKED FOR A SELFIE.
NOT SPENDING THE WEEKEND
TOGETHER.
TOGETHER. DID NOT DISCUSS BEING ON HIS
SHOW.
SHOW. NOR DID WE DISCUSS POTUS.
HASHTAG DONE, HASHTAG
RIDICULOUS.
RIDICULOUS. JUST IN THE LAST HOUR ON THIS
NETWORK, TOM ARNOLD WAS BACK AT
IT AND DISCUSSING COHEN AND HIS
ALLEGED COOPERATION IN AN
INTERVIEW WITH LAWRENCE
O’DONNELL ON "THE LAST WORD."
>> MICHAEL COHEN IS COOPERATING
ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THIS RIGHT
NOW.
NOW. >> AND THE RIGHT SIDE, DOES THAT
INCLUDE THE FBI AND THE --
>> YES.
>> YES. >> SO HE’S COOPERATING WITH THEM
ALREADY?
ALREADY? >> YES, 100%.
>> AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
HE TOLD YOU THAT?
>> HE DIDN’T SAY THOSE WORDS,
BUT I KNOW THAT.
>> WHAT WERE THE WORDS HE SAID?
>> I KNOW PEOPLE ARE --
>> TO INDICATE THAT?
THAT’S OKAY.
THAT’S OKAY. I UNDERSTAND.
I UNDERSTAND. >> UM, I’M WITH YOU.
YOU KNOW THAT.
>> COHEN IS UNDER FEDERAL
INVESTIGATION IN CONNECTION WITH
$130,000 PAYMENT OF HUSH MONEY
TO PORN STAR STORMY DANIELS.
HER ATTORNEY WEIGHED IN ON THIS
NETWORK EARLIER TODAY.
>> PERHAPS THIS IS A FLARE
GUNSHOT IN THE AIR FOR MICHAEL
COHEN
COHEN COHEN, YOU KNOW, A MESSAGE TO
MR. TRUMP OR OTHERS THAT THERE
MAY BE THINGS COMING DOWN THE
PIKE.
PIKE. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND
THAT MICHAEL COHEN IS GOING TO
BE INDICTED AND FACE SOME VERY,
VERY SERIOUS CHARGES.
THERE’S NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT
HE’S GOING TO TRY TO TRADE OR
FLIP ON THIS.
>> HERE WITH US TONIGHT, MIMI
ROCAH, FORMER ASSISTANT U.S.
ATTORNEY FOR THE SOUTHERN
DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, NOW A
DISTINGUISHED FELLOW IN CRIMINAL
JUSTICE AT THE PACE UNIVERSITY
SCHOOL OF LAW AND MSNBC LEGAL
ANALYST.
ANALYST. AND JOSH GERSTEIN, SENIOR WHITE
HOUSE REPORTER FOR POLITICO.
QUESTIONS I DIDN’T THINK I’D BE
ASKING ON AN 11:00 NEWS SHOW ON
MSNBC A COUPLE YEARS AGO, BUT
LET’S TALK ABOUT TOM ARNOLD.
>> LET’S.
>> LET’S. >> HE’S HINTING IN AN AWFUL LOT
IN AN INTERVIEW ON THIS NETWORK
EARLIER TONIGHT, ON CNN, HINTING
IN THAT CLIP AND OTHER PARTS OF
THAT INTERVIEW, HIS ANTICS WE
PLAYED SEEMED ERRATIC, THE
INCENTIVE HE HAS TO HYPE
INTEREST IN THIS SPECIAL HE’S
GOT COMING OUT SEEMS OBVIOUS.
I’M A LAYMAN LEGALLY.
I’M CURIOUS WATCHING THAT
INTERVIEW TONIGHT, WATCHING
THESE INTERVIEWS, WHAT DID YOU
MAKE OF IT?
>> LOOK, IT’S HARD TO KNOW WHAT
HE -- HE DIDN’T ACTUALLY COME
OUT AND SAY IT, RIGHT?
SO EVEN WHEN HE WAS ASKED, IS HE
COOPERATING BY LAWRENCE, HE
SAID -- ARNOLD SAID HE’S ON THE
RIGHT SIDE.
RIGHT SIDE. BUT THEN WHEN HE ASKED ABOUT THE
EXACT WORDS, THE WORDS WERE
ABOUT "I’M WITH YOU."
COHEN SAYING TO ARNOLD "I’M WITH
YOU," WHICH DOESN’T SAY ANYTHING
ABOUT WHAT HE’S DOING WITH THE
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. BUT IT DOESN’T ANSWER THE
QUESTION THAT LAWRENCE HAD
ASKED, WHICH IS, IS HE
COOPERATING WITH THE GOVERNMENT,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? SO, YOU KNOW, THERE’S A LOT OF
SORT OF -- IT’S GOOD TV.
THERE’S A LOT OF DIFFERENT
THINGS THAT ARNOLD HAS SAID.
ONE THING I KNOW FOR SURE, AND
THIS IS NOT THE POINT OF WHAT
HE’S SAYING.
HE’S SAYING. BUT I KNOW FOR SURE THAT COHEN’S
NEW LAWYER, GUY PETRILLO, AND
THE PROSECUTORS AND THE FBI DO
NOT WANT TOM ARNOLD OUT THERE
DOING WHAT HE’S DOING RIGHT NOW,
OKAY?
OKAY? BECAUSE IF MICHAEL COHEN IS
HEADED IN THE DIRECTION OF
COOPERATING WITH THEM, THEY
DON’T WANT TOM ARNOLD TALKING
ABOUT WHAT COHEN IS ALSO TELLING
THEM OUT ON TELEVISION, AND THEY
DON’T WANT COHEN THEN, YOU KNOW,
ON TWITTER SAYING, NO, THAT’S
NOT TRUE, AND ARNOLD SAYING, NO,
WHAT YOU’RE SAYING ISN’T TRUE.
YOU KNOW, IT’S HURTING -- IT
COULD POTENTIALLY HURT THE
CREDIBILITY OF WHAT MAY BE A
VERY IMPORTANT WITNESS IF YOU
START GETTING INTO THIS
TWITTER-FEST ABOUT WHAT SOMEONE
DID OR DIDN’T SAY AND WHAT
SOMEONE IS OR ISN’T DOING.
COOPERATION IS MEANT TO BE A
CONFIDENTIAL PROCESS.
CONFIDENTIAL PROCESS. EVEN IF SOMEONE ISN’T
COOPERATING PROACTIVELY.
COOPERATING PROACTIVELY. SO I KNOW AT LEAST, YOU KNOW,
COHEN’S ATTORNEY IS PROBABLY
COUNSELING COHEN TO NOT DO THIS,
ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE ATTORNEY
THAT HE NOW HAS, GUY PETRILLO,
FORMER PROSECUTOR.
FORMER PROSECUTOR. I KNOW HIM.
YOU KNOW, A VERY HONORABLE, GOOD
LAWYER, UPSTANDING PERSON, WELL
THOUGHT OF, WELL RESPECTED.
HE WOULD NOT, I DON’T THINK, BE
IN FAVOR OF THIS.
SO, YOU KNOW, IT’S HARD TO KNOW
WHAT TO MAKE OF ARNOLD SAYING
ALL OF THIS.
I THINK ALL THAT SAID, THOUGH,
COHEN HAS A LOT OF INCENTIVE TO
COOPERATE.
COOPERATE. SO I DON’T THINK IT’S BEYOND THE
REALM AT ALL THAT HE IS AT LEAST
HEADED IN THAT DIRECTION.
COOPERATION RIGHT NOW WOULDN’T
MEAN OBVIOUSLY THAT HE’S GOING
IN COURT TOMORROW OR ANYTIME
SOON AND PLEADING GUILTY.
IT MAY MEAN THAT HE’S ALREADY
POSSIBLY -- I DON’T KNOW THIS --
STARTED TALKING, YOU KNOW, WITH
THEM INFORMALLY OR FORMALLY OR
IT MAY JUST MEAN THAT’S WHERE
HE’S HEADED.
HE’S HEADED. YOU KNOW, THAT’S THE DIRECTION
HE’S GOING IN.
AND THAT MAKES SENSE BECAUSE,
REMEMBER, THE JUDGE HAS
BASICALLY ADOPTED THE SPECIAL
MASTER’S FINDINGS, YOU KNOW,
WHICH SAY THAT ALMOST NOTHING IS
PRIVILEGED.
PRIVILEGED. SO ALL OF THAT EVIDENCE THAT WAS
SEIZED IS COMING IN.
AND SO, YOU KNOW -- AGAINST
COHEN.
COHEN. SO THAT EVIDENCE, AND WE’RE JUST
STARTING TO HEAR ABOUT MORE AND
MORE CRIMES THAT THEY’RE
OBVIOUSLY LOOKING AT, AND I’M
SURE THERE IS MORE TO COME.
SO HE’S UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE
TO COOPERATE.
TO COOPERATE. >> AND, JOSH, I MEAN I’M JUST
CURIOUS.
CURIOUS. WHERE DOES YOUR INTERPRETATION
FALL ON THAT SCALE OF, YOU KNOW,
KIND OF HYPE OR SOMETHING
ERRATIC ON ONE SIDE VERSUS
SOMETHING REAL ON THE OTHER
SIDE?
SIDE? WHERE IS THE BALANCE FOR YOU?
>> WELL, I DO THINK THAT WHAT
TOM ARNOLD WAS SAYING IN THESE
SEVERAL INTERVIEWS HAS TO BE
TAKEN WITH MORE THAN A GRAIN OF
SALT, PROBABLY WITH AT LEAST A
FULL TABLESPOON OR MORE.
BUT THERE IS THIS ELEMENT HERE
WHERE YOU DO GET THE SENSE THAT
MICHAEL COHEN IS SOMETIMES
TROLLING PRESIDENT TRUMP, YOU
KNOW, THAT HE COULD HAVE TAKEN
THE OPPORTUNITY NOT TO HAVE A
SELFIE TAKEN WITH ARNOLD, BUT HE
WENT AHEAD AND DID IT.
AND IN SOME OF THESE COMMENTS
AND INTERACTIONS SEEMS KIND OF
PLAYFUL.
PLAYFUL. IT DOES SEEM LIKE A DEGREE OF
ATTENTION-SEEKING WITH RESPECT
TO THE PRESIDENT, LIKE THERE’S
SOME KIND OF DEEP-SEEDED,
PSYCHOLOGICAL GRIEVANCE OR
NEEDINESS THERE.
NEEDINESS THERE. WHETHER THAT’S PART OF A LEGAL
STRATEGY OR SOME OTHER KIND OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL ISSUE IS HARD TO
SAY.
SAY. THE LAST TIME I CHECKED IN WITH
PEOPLE CLOSE TO COHEN, THE WORD
WAS THAT HE WAS NOT COOPERATING
WITH FEDERAL PROSECUTORS, THAT
HE WAS OPEN TO TALKING WITH THEM
ABOUT IT, BUT THAT THOSE
DISCUSSIONS HAD NOT PROGRESSED
TO THE POINT THAT ANYBODY COULD
DESCRIBE AS ACTIVELY
COOPERATING.
COOPERATING. >> AND I THINK THERE WAS ONE
POINT IN THAT INTERVIEW TONIGHT
WHEN ARNOLD SAID SOMETHING TO
THE EFFECT, PARAPHRASING HERE,
OF, HEY, I’M OVERSELLING THIS
INTERACTION WITH COHEN A LITTLE
BIT, BUT HE’S UNDERSELLING IT.
HE’S VERY MUCH UNDERSELLING IT.
SO I THINK ARNOLD HAD SAID
SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT AT ONE
POINT.
POINT. JOSH, RELATED TO THE ISSUE OF
MICHAEL COHEN, THEN, AND THE
LEGAL SITUATION HE FINDS HIMSELF
IN, THERE WERE ALSO SOME COURT
FILINGS, OR THERE WAS A COURT
FILING TODAY THAT SHED A LITTLE
BIT MORE LIGHT ON THE DOCUMENTS
THE GOVERNMENT NOW HAS IN ITS
POSSESSION.
POSSESSION. WHAT CAN YOU TELL BUSUS ABOUT TH
>> IT TALKED ABOUT THE JUDGE AND
THE SPECIAL MASTER’S DECISION ON
HOW MANY INFORMATION IS
PRIVILEGED HERE.
PRIVILEGED HERE. WHAT WAS FASCINATING IN THIS
ORDER THAT JUDGE WOOD PUT OUT
WAS THAT EVEN AMONG THE
RELATIVELY SMALL UNIVERSE OF
INFORMATION THEY DECIDED WAS
PRIVILEGED, THE VAST MAJORITY OF
IT SEEMED TO HAVE NOTHING TO DO
WITH EITHER PRESIDENT TRUMP OR
THE TRUMP ORGANIZATION OR ANY
OTHER CLIENTS LIKE FOLKS LIKE
SEAN HANNITY, FOR EXAMPLE.
THE STUFF THAT WAS DEEMED
PRIVILEGED SEEMS TO BE LEGAL
ADVICE THAT MICHAEL COHEN WAS
GETTING FROM OTHER LAWYERS ABOUT
MICHAEL COHEN’S PERSONAL
EXPOSURE OR OTHER LEGAL MATTERS
AND VERY, VERY LITTLE OF IT HAS
TO DO WITH ANY CLIENTS.
SO THE TOTAL AMOUNT THAT’S GOING
TO BE WITHHELD FROM PROSECUTORS
THAT COULD POTENTIALLY BE
RELEVANT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP IS
AN INFINITESIMAL FRACTION,
PROBABLY ON THE ORDER OF A TENTH
OF 1% OR A HUNDREDTH OF 1% OF
THE MATERIAL THAT’S BEEN
PROCESSED SO FAR.
>> ANY SENSE ON THE TIMETABLE ON
THIS?
THIS? ALL THE SPECULATION IS THERE
GOING TO BE SOME KIND OF DEAL,
SOME KIND OF COOPERATION, SOME
KIND OF FLIPPING?
IS THAT WE FIND OUT WHEN WE FIND
OUT, OR ARE THERE ANY CLUES WE
CAN KIND OF DISCERN HERE WHEN WE
GET AN ANSWER TO THAT?
>> WELL, WE FIND OUT WHEN THEY
WANT US TO FIND OUT.
I MEAN EVEN ONCE HE GOES DOWN
THAT ROAD IF HE GOES DOWN THE
ROAD OF COOPERATION, WE MAY NOT
KNOW IT.
KNOW IT. NOW, MICHAEL COHEN IS UNUSUAL
BECAUSE HE DOES LIKE THE
ATTENTION AND WANTS TO TALK.
THEY WON’T WANT HIM TO CONFIRM
TO ANYONE IF HE IS COOPERATING,
THEY BEING THE GOVERNMENT, AND
HIS LAWYER I’M SURE WOULD TRY TO
TELL HIM NOT TO.
BUT I DON’T KNOW IF HE CAN HELP
HIMSELF.
HIMSELF. THE TRUTH IS A SIGN MIGHT BE
SHALL --
SHALL -- I EXPECT MICHAEL COHEN TO GET
CHARGED NOW THAT THIS DISCOVERY
PROCESS IS COMING TO AN END.
ONE WOULD THINK THE NEXT STEP
WOULD BE HIM GETTING CHARGED.
IF FOR SOME REASON CHARGES
AREN’T FILED, THAT WOULD BE A
SIGN TO ME THAT THERE ARE
DISCUSSIONS GOING ON.
NOW, IT DOESN’T HAVE TO BE
COOPERATION.
COOPERATION. THEY COULD BE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
A PLEA WITHOUT COOPERATING,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? LIKE HE HIRED GUY PETRILLO.
YOU KNOW, HIRING AN ALUM FROM
THE OFFICE IS SOMEONE WHO CAN
HELP HIM NAVIGATE THE OFFICE.
WHETHER YOU GO DOWN THE
COOPERATION ROAD, MEANING GIVING
INFORMATION IN EXCHANGE FOR
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW, WHICH YOU
GET FROM THE GOVERNMENT -- IT’S
CALLED A 5K LETTER -- OR JUST
NEGOTIATING A PLEA AGREEMENT
THAT’S FAVORABLE TO HIM SO THAT
HE CAN, YOU KNOW, TRY TO SPEND
LESS TIME IN JAIL THAN HE
OTHERWISE WOULD IF HE WENT TO
TRIAL.
TRIAL. SO HE HAS THE SAME OPTIONS
AVAILABLE TO HIM THAT ANY
DEFENDANT HAS ONCE HE’S CHARGED.
AND EVEN IF HE’S NOT CHARGED,
YOU CAN START THAT NEGOTIATION
PROCESS.
PROCESS. SO IF THOSE CHARGES AREN’T FILED
RELATIVELY SOON, THAT WOULD BE A
SIGN THAT HE’S TRYING TO
NEGOTIATE SOMETHING.
NEGOTIATE SOMETHING. AGAIN, I THINK WE HAVE TO BE