Film Courage: What about the opposite? What if someone says “I’m never going to get
notes like that. I’m going to have it [the script] packed with conflict. And it’s actually
too much. It’s not subtle, it’s not under the surface.
I’m just thinking of HBO’s SHARP OBJECTS, I watched the first episode last night. And
you can see seeds planted. The conflict - some of it’s obvious, some of it’s not and
you’re wondering “Hhmmmm? There was a look at the end with this one character. I
think there’s going to be conflict.” It hints at it and then it keeps you hooked in
because you’re like “I want to see someone go down here.” But it doesn’t yet.
Erik Bork: It’s not that you have to hit people over the head with like constant screaming
matches or fights or anything like that. To me there has to be a central problem and a
central character faced with that problem that the audience buys into early on and says
“Okay, I care about this problem.” I want to see this problem get solved for this person.
Once you have them feeling that way then you can play out the resolution of that problem
over a lengthy period of time. You don’t have to get to it in a really sledge hammer
kind of manner. But the problem has to be big enough to begin with. It has to be grabby
enough to begin with. But then how they involve dealing with the problem and how it evolves
and then if it’s a mystery how the cards get turned over and how the clues get revealed
and the leads get followed up on, that’s part of the fun for the audience is that that
stuff takes time. You just don’t want to have long periods where none of that is happening
at all and things just seem kind of fine. That’s what you want to avoid. Things are
never fine in a story. There’s always that simmering problem overshadowing everything
in a commercial story where the audience is going “I want to see this resolved.” The
reason I am binging on this is I want to see this problem or problems get resolved. What
they really want to see is how the problem builds and complicates and twists and turns
and evolves and then later get resolved because you know once it gets resolved it’s kind
of over. So if you’re binging on 12 episodes or whatever it is, you probably know no real
resolution is going to happen until the end of the 12 but (if then) but on the way how
it’s evolving is the thing that is fun for us to watch as the audience.
Film Courage: Have you given notes to someone “Hey tone it down, this is too much right
here. It’s too explosive and it’s almost like beating the reader over the head a little
bit?”
Erik: I don’t think that happens very much unless what they’re doing doesn’t feel
believable to me. That’s sort of the B in P R O B L E M [the concept of Erik’s book]
is it believable and that’s kind of a bigger, more common issue than people might think
where readers are reading their stuff and going “I don’t believe this character
would do or say this.” Or maybe it feels contrived in some way. It feels like the writer
is trying to force something that isn’t organically coming out of the lives and desires
and emotions and personalities of the characters. So to some extent the characters do have to
drive the story. Everything they’re doing has to feel like it could and would really
happen. They could or would really say those things in those moments. So it’s not that
I’m saying “Oh, there’s too much conflict. You’re trying to make the conflict too big”
per se unless in doing that it’s straining believability.
Because even though stories have usually something exaggerated about them or even sometimes a
fantastical element that they are based on like there’s a zombie apocalypse or there
is vampires in high school or whatever, even thought they have that kind of stuff sometimes
and even in a comedy you’re exaggerating characters a little bit for comedy, I believe
there has to be this basis of reality. That we’re seeing human beings that we can accept
seem real doing or saying what we think they would really do or say in those situations
and a lot of times in a lot of scripts there will be moments that seem that way. That feel
over the top, unbelievable, reacting in ways that seem forced for the sake of more conflict
or comedy or entertainment value or more action. So that’s where I feel that something needs
to be toned down so it feels like it’s coming from a real place.
When in doubt I say always go for the real. I heard someone say this once (a professional
writer at a panel) and it’s so true, you hope that your concept is compelling enough,
people are going to care, there is something entertaining at it’s core but when you start
plotting it out, I always say “Start with what’s real.” At every moment in the story,
what would every character be thinking, feeling, doing at this point in the situation, given
their situation. How do you make them do things that feel totally believable and just totally
real. Audiences love it when it feels real but still is entertaining and compelling and
all those other things. And achieving that level of realness that feels really authentic
is difficult but it’s really special when a writer is able to just write with authenticity
where I absolutely suspend disbelief, I’m absolutely happy, I believe these people are
real, I forget that I’m watching something fictional, I forget that I’m watching something
fictional. So when you can do that in the context of having these other elements in
a story, I think you are in really good shape.
Film Courage: Can you think about a film in particular that was one of the first that
did that for you?
Erik: Well I think most great and really successful movies and TV shows do have that basis of
reality which is why they work. If they didn’t have it, I don’t think they’d be successful.
So I think you see that in most successful things so there is this sense of I believe
these people and what they’re doing, I believe the reality of the situation that the writer
has set up. Having said that there are certain shows, certain movies that I can think of
(maybe not the first that did it) but that feel like they did it to a really extreme
level like THE WIRE on HBO (that series) to me made every other cop show that came before
seem almost like cheesy or fake in comparison because it felt so real and when you can achieve
that level of realness, audiences, critics, agents, producers, they all respond to that.
If you have all these other elements of story in place, that level of realness can really
make you stuff special (so that’s one example).
THE SOPRANOS was also a show that even though it was not trying to be as real as THE WIRE,
when I would watch THE SOPRANOS I would just kind of buy it for some reason. I don’t
feel like it was a show that I’m watching actors and writers and directors. I feel like
I’m watching these real people that are living in this subculture at its best. Which
I think is the reason why shows like THE SOPRANOS and THE WIRE are voted like the best written
shows of all time because they obviously did that for a lot of people.
Film Courage: Even Forrest Gump, I can think that this is a real person that if you go
on Wikipedia…oh…there he is. And yes he beat this person in ping-pong and it’s believable
enough as wild as a ride as his life was that he could be a real person. There is just something
about the writing and drawing you into this sort of innocent world.
Erik: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s an opposite example of a very fanciful
story but some how it convinces the audience for those 2 to 3 hours that this is a real
thing. And nothing is making him go “Okay, it’s not real anymore. I don’t get it.”
I mean there are people who don’t like the movie but I don’t think there is much where
people check out because it doesn’t seem like it could be plausible.
The characters once you establish who they are, they behave in ways that make sense based
on who they are, their psychology and what their backstories are and what their desires
and situations are and that’s where the writer (Erik Roth in this case) is going for
the real thing. The situation, the people and saying what is real to have happen next.
Film Courage: And plus he’s throwing in some very damaged supporting characters, Jenny
and Captain Dan…things like that around it. And so as perfect as Forrest might seem
and he is always sort of able to run through all these situations, he has some very damaged
people around him that makes it so real.
Erik: If you look at Lt. Dan or Jenny in Forrest Gump, they are playing out their psychology,
their family history, their wounds, their problems, their worst tragedies that had happened
to them and they feel like it’s psychologically real. And that’s what I mean when I say
real, it’s like psychologically based on who they are. I think a writer of fiction
kind of has to kind of be a little bit of a psychologist because you’re saying given
this person’s history and what they’ve been through, how would they be now? How would
they react in this situation, how would they go on pursuing what they want in their lives?
And it’s going to vary based on where they come from and what led them to this point.
So it’s not easy to do that really well but when you do I think audiences respond
by totally buying in and being compelled by this psychologically real feeling person that
you’re putting on screen or on page.