GOVERNMENT, BIG BUREAUCRACY.
NO, NO, NO.
>> FOLKS ON THE RIGHT ARE LOSING
THEIR MINDS OVER JUST THE
THOUGHT OF VACCINE PASSPORTS.
FOR ALL THE OUTRAGE, YOU’D THINK
THAT THIS WAS ON PRESIDENT
BIDEN’S AGENDA.
BUT IT’S NOT.
>> THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT NOW NOR
WILL WE BE SUPPORTING A SYSTEM
THAT REQUIRES AMERICANS TO CARRY
A CREDENTIAL.
>> SO FAR JUST ONE STATE HAS
OFFERED THIS TYPE OF CREDENTIAL.
NEW YORK STATE’S EXCELSIOR PASS.
JOINING ME IS JODY GERUT AND DR.
EZEKIEL EMANUEL, FORMER OBAMA
WHITE HOUSE HEALTH POLICY
ADVISER AND AUTHOR OF "WHICH
COUNTRY HAS THE WORLD’S BEST
HEALTH CARE."
THANK YOU BOTH FOR BEING HERE TO
HAVE THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT
VACCINE PASSPORTS.
I’M GOING TO STAR WITH YOU, DR.
EMANUEL.
FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, YOU ARE
IN FAVOR OF VACCINE PASSPORTS.
WHAT IS A VACCINE PASSPORT, AND
WHY DO YOU THINK IT’S A GOOD
IDEA?
>> FIRST OF ALL, I -- SEPARATE
WHETHER I THINK IT’S A GOOD IDEA
OR NOT.
IT’S HERE.
IT’S COMING, IT’S INEVITABLE.
SECOND, WE USE VACCINATION
CERTIFICATION ALL THE TIME FOR
KIDS TO GO TO SCHOOL.
I HAVE MY YELLOW FEVER
CERTIFICATION TO TRAVEL TO
CERTAIN COUNTRIES.
OTHER PEOPLE HAVE IT.
AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO NEED
REASSURANCE, FOR EXAMPLE, IF I
GO INTO THE HOSPITAL.
I’D LIKE TO KNOW THAT PEOPLE ARE
ACTUALLY VACCINATED.
I DON’T GET SICKER FROM GOING TO
THE HOSPITAL THAN NOT.
IF I GO TO THE THEATER, IF I GO
TO A SPORTING EVENT.
SO YOU’LL HAVE THESE THINGS.
BUT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT
THEY ARE DONE ETHICALLY.
I DON’T THINK IT’S A QUESTION OF
WILL WE HAVE IT, WON’T WE HAVE
IT.
WE’RE GOING TO HAVE IT, IF ONLY
FOR INTERNATIONAL TRAVEL AND
PROBABLY DOMESTIC TRAVEL.
AND THE QUESTION IS TO DO IT
ETHICALLY, NOT WHETHER TO HAVE
IT.
THAT’S THE FALSE DISCUSSION.
>> AND ONE MORE QUESTION, DR.
EMANUEL.
WHAT ABOUT THE PUSHBACK FROM THE
RIGHT AS WE SAW IN THAT MONTAGE.
THIS IS ORWELLIAN AND THE
GOVERNMENT IS HAVING ALL YOUR
INFORMATION AND TRACKING YOU.
SHOULD ANYONE HAVE ANY CONCERN
ABOUT THAT?
>> WELL, THAT’S PART OF DOING IT
ETHICALLY.
I DON’T THINK WE SHOULD HAVE THE
GOVERNMENT BE LOOKING INTO IT
AND MATCHING, YOU KNOW, VACCINE
PASSPORTS WITH IMMIGRATION OR
VACCINE PASSPORTS WITH TAXATION.
THAT WOULD BE WRONG.
SIMILARLY, I THINK IT WOULD BE
WRONG IF GOOGLE DID IT OR
FACEBOOK DID IT AND THEN
COMMERCIALIZED IT AND, YOU KNOW,
PLUGGED YOUR INFORMATION.
I THINK ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE
PART OF THE SAFEGUARDS WE NEED.
AND WE HAVE TO HAVE.
AND SPENDING TIME, WASTING TIME
SAYING YOU’RE INFRINGING MY
FREEDOM.
YOU DON’T HAVE A FREEDOM TO BE
INFECTIOUS AND SPREAD IT AROUND
SOCIETY AND ENDANGER MY LIFE.
THAT IS FALSE FREEDOM.
REMEMBER, OUR FOUNDING FATHERS
DIDN’T TALK ABOUT LIBERTY, DO
WHATEVER YOU WANT.
THEY TALKED ABOUT ORDERED
LIBERTY AND PART OF ORDERED
LIBERTY IS PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING
THINGS THAT PROTECT THEIR FELLOW
CITIZENS.
AND THAT IS KEY THAT THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY SEEMS TO HAVE
FORGOTTEN.
>> YOU KNOW, LAURIE, YOU’RE SORT
OF ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS.
YOU HAVE A PASSPORT, BUT YOU
DON’T THINK THAT THEY’LL
ACTUALLY WORK.
TALK ABOUT WHY.
>> THERE IT IS ON YOUR --
>> ON MY PHONE.
ON MY PHONE, JONATHAN.
AND CURIOUSLY, IT SAYS, IT
EXPIRES ON MAY 1st.
SO I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IS THE
POINT OF THIS IDIOTIC THING.
THERE’S NO PLACE THAT ALLEGEDLY
I CAN SHOW IT.
NO FOREIGN COUNTRY RECOGNIZES
THE NEW YORK STATE QR CODE AS
PROOF THAT I’VE BEEN VACCINATED.
IT DOESN’T MAKE A WHOLE HECK OF
A LOT OF SENSE TO ME.
BUT, YOU KNOW, I COME -- I’M OLD
ENOUGH THAT I COME FROM THE ERA
WHEN I HAD ONE OF THESE INSIDE
MY PASSPORT.
>> I HAVE ONE OF THOSE, TOO.
>> AND IT HAS MULTIPLE VACCINES,
NOT ONE OR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR.
IT HAS PAGES OF VACCINES THAT
HAVE BEEN ADMINISTERED IN MY
LIFETIME.
AND I ACTUALLY WAS THROWN IN A
JAIL CELL IN ONE AFRICAN COUNTRY
BECAUSE THIS HAD FALLEN OUT OF
MY PASSPORT AND I DIDN’T HAVE IT
TO SHOW AS I ENTERED THE
COUNTRY.
THESE WERE VERY RIGIDLY ADHERED
TO, BUT THEY WERE ALSO EASY TO
MAKE FRAUDULENTLY.
AS YOU CAN SEE, IT’S JUST PAPER.
>> RIGHT.
>> ANYBODY WITH A PRINTING PRESS
CAN MAKE ONE OF THESE THINGS.
AND ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE COULD
PRETEND TO BE DOCTORS AND HAVE
THESE STAMPS TO PUT IN TO SAY
THAT YOU’D HAD VACCINES.
AND SO ACTUALLY, BY THE TURN OF
THE 21st CENTURY, MOST OF THE
COUNTRIES THAT WERE MEMBERS OF
THE WORLD HEALTH ASSEMBLY SAID
IT’S NOT WORKING.
WE’VE GOT MAKE YELLOW FEVER
PASSES ALL OVER AFRICA.
WE’VE GOT FAKE MENINGITIS PASSES
ALL OVER AFRICA AND FAKE YELLOW
CARDS ALL OVER THE WORLD.
THEY’VE ALL BEEN FRAUDULENTLY
ADMINISTERED.
LET’S GET RID OF THIS.
LET’S NARROW IT DOWN.
LET’S FOCUS ON YELLOW FEVER AND
CREATE THE INTERNATIONAL HEALTH
REGULATIONS.
AND SO WE STEPPED AWAY FROM THAT
ENTIRE APPROACH BECAUSE THE
TRUTH WAS THAT, NUMBER ONE, IT
WAS OVERWHELMINGLY FRAUDULENT
AND NUMBER TWO, A LOT OF PEOPLE
WERE ABLE TO GET AROUND IT BASED
ON YOUR NATIONALITY WHEN THEY
CROSSED INTO A COUNTRY.
I AS A WHITE PERSON GOT
QUESTIONED LESS FREQUENTLY THAN
MY CO-TRAVELERS WHO WERE PEOPLE
OF COLOR.
THEY WERE NEVER ADMINISTERED
FAIRLY AND JUSTLY.
YOU WERE MORE LIKELY TO BE
DENIED ENTRY TO A COUNTRY OR
THROWN INTO JAIL IF YOU WERE
FROM SOME COUNTRY THAT THE PLACE
YOU WERE GOING TO DIDN’T LIKE.
AND SO --
>> RIGHT.
>> I DON’T SEE THE PURPOSE OF
IT.
I CERTAINLY DON’T HAVE ANY IDEA
HOW BETWEEN NOW AND MAY 1st I’M
GOING TO USE THIS DARN THING.
>> SO LAURIE THEN, IF THEY’RE
FRAUDULENT, THEY DON’T WORK, TO
DR. EMANUEL’S POINT, HOW WILL
PEOPLE KNOW WHETHER IT’S SAFE TO
GO INTO A HOSPITAL, GO INTO A
RESTAURANT OR SHOULD WE JUST
LIVE WITH THE -- LIVE WITH COVID
IN THE SAME WAY WE LIVE WITH THE
FLU EVERY YEAR?
GET THE VACCINE AND HOPE FOR THE
BEST?
>> LOOK, WHAT I FIND VERY
CURIOUS ABOUT THE RIGHT WING
ASSAULT IS THAT THERE’S THIS
MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION THAT IT’S
GOVERNMENT THAT WANTS TO DO
THIS.
BUT ACTUALLY, IT’S EMPLOYERS.
IT’S BIG BUSINESS.
IT’S A LOT OF PLACES THAT WANT
TO PUT PEOPLE IN THE SEATS.
AND THEY WANT SOME WAY OF SAYING
THAT I’VE SAFELY PUT PEOPLE IN
THE SEATS AND I CAN PACK THE
SEATS.
I CAN FILL THE AUDITORIUM.
I CAN FILL THE OFFICE AND SO ON.
AND SO I THINK IF THERE’S LIKELY
TO BE INAPPROPRIATE USE OR
EXCESSIVE USE OF SOME FORM OF
VACCINE PASS, IT’S REALLY GOING
TO BE MORE FINANCIALLY DRIVEN
THAN ANYTHING TO DO WITH
GOVERNMENT WATCHDOGS.
AND WILL IT WORK?
WELL, WE’LL SEE.
BUT I THINK WE HAVE TO BE MORE
ADULT ABOUT ALL OF THIS.
AND I KNOW ZEKE WOULD AGREE WITH
ME BECAUSE I’VE HEARD HIM SAY
THIS MANY TIMES BEFORE.
THE VACCINATION IS NOT SO MUCH
ABOUT YOU AS IT IS ABOUT THE
COMMUNITY YOU LIVE IN.
AND IF YOU’RE SO SELFISH THAT
YOU ONLY IDENTIFY WITH
VACCINATION AS SELF-PROTECTION
AND YOUR RIGHT TO MOVE AROUND
FREELY THEN YOU’RE MISSING THE
ENTIRE POINT.
THE POINT OF VACCINATION IS THE
TOTAL POPULATION.
IT’S LOWERING CHANCE THAT
EVERYONE IN AMERICA WILL GET
THIS DISEASE.
AND IF YOU CAN’T ALL GET ON
BOARD, THEN WE LOSE THE GAME.
>> DR. EMANUEL, I’M GIVING YOU
THE LAST WORD.
REAL FAST.
>> LAURIE AND I HAVE HEATED
AGREEMENT.
THESE THINGS ARE GOING TO BE
THERE.
THE QUESTION IS TO MAKE THEM
GOOD AND TO MAKE THEM NOT ABOUT
FINANCIAL GAIN FOR BIG BUSINESS.
AND THERE, I DO THINK THERE’S A