ALL OF YOU, AND FOR THAT IS WHAT
AMERICA, I BELIEVE, IS ABOUT.
>> 37 PAST THE HOUR.
WELCOME BACK TO "MORNING JOE."
JOINING US VANDERBILT’S ROGER’S
CHAIR AND THE AMERICAN
PRESIDENCY HISTORIAN JON
MEACHAM, AN ACLIMBED WRITER AND
JOURNALIST, TOM RIP CURRENTS
AUTHOR OF THE NEW BOOK OUT
TOMORROW ENTITLED "FIRST
PRINCIPLES: WHAT AMERICA’S
FOUNDERS LEARNED FROM THE GREEKS
AND ROMANS AND HOW THAT SHAPED
OUR COUNTRY".
>> THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING WITH
US.
TOM, THANKS SO MUCH.
A HUGE FAN OF YOUR BOOK.
IT WAS GREAT LATE SUMMER READING
WHEN YOU ALL WERE KIND ENOUGH TO
FORWARD IT TO ME.
I WAS THINKING ABOUT YOU THIS
WEEKEND AS I HEARD PEOPLE ON THE
LEFT AND THE RIGHT SHOUT TO THE
HEAVENS, MY GOD, MY GOD,
GRIDLOCK AGAIN.
AND I JUST THOUGHT OF THAT
SILICON VALLEY PHRASE THAT YOU
LIFTED AND TALKED ABOUT IN YOUR
BOOK THAT THIS SORT OF CREEPING
COMPROMISE, THIS INCREMENTALISM,
IT’S NOT A BUG IN OUR SYSTEM.
IT’S A FEATURE OF OUR SYSTEM.
EXPLAIN.
>> THAT’S RIGHT.
IT IS CENTRAL TO HOW THE
CONSTITUTION WAS LAID OUT BY, IT
WAS MADISON, WHICH IS I AM GOING
TO DISPERSE POWER SO WIDELY THAT
IF YOU WANT TO MAKE PROGRESS IN
THIS COUNTRY YOU HAVE IT FIND
ALLIANCES, MOVING TOGETHER AND
FIND SOMEBODY ELSE WHO SUPPORTS
YOU EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE FROM A
DIFFERENT PART OF THE COUNTRY.
AND SO MADISON TAKES POWER AND
SPREAD IT ACROSS THREE BRANCHES
OF GOVERNMENT.
IN THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH, TWO
HOUSES RATHER THAN THE PREVIOUS
SYSTEM, THE ARTICLES OF
CONFEDERATION, WHICH IS OUT OF
CONGRESS, AND THEN YOU HAVE
DISPERSAL BETWEEN THE STATES AND
THE FEDERAL SYSTEM.
SO AMERICAN POWER IS JUST ALL
OVER THE PLACE.
AND YOU KIND OF SAW THAT WITH
TRUMP.
TRUMP TALKED A LOT BUT NOT MUCH
HAPPENED IN THE GOVERNMENT.
IN FACT, I THINK KIND OF THE
TRUMP ERA WAS LIKE WE WENT BACK
TO THE ARTICLES OF
CONFEDERATION.
WE HAD A BUNCH OF GOVERNORS
TRYING TO DO THINGS AND WE HAD A
CENTRAL GOVERNMENT THAT SEEMED
FROZEN AND POWERLESS.
>> SO, LET’S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK
MORE GENERALLY.
IT’S FASCINATING TO HAVE YOU ON
NOW BECAUSE YOU, IN FACT,
STARTED THIS JOURNEY OF YOURS
FOUR YEARS AGO THE DAY AFTER THE
ELECTION OF DONALD TRUMP IN
2016, AND DECIDED TO GO BACK TO
THE BEGINNING AND TO FIGURE OUT
WHAT THIS COUNTRY WAS ABOUT AND
TO DO THAT YOU STUDIED WHAT OUR
FOUNDERS STUDIED, BUT YOU ALSO
EXAMINED THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THEIR OWN EDUCATION AND HOW IT
SHAPED THE LEADERS THEY BECAME
AS THEY WERE FRAMING OUR
CONSTITUTION AND OUR COUNTRY.
TALK ABOUT THAT.
>> WELL, THAT’S RIGHT.
ON THAT MORNING, AFTER THE 2016
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, I WENT
DOWNSTAIRS TO MY LIBRARY AND
SAID, WHAT HAPPENED?
HOW CAN I THINK ABOUT THIS?
SO I TOOK AIRRISTOTLE’S POLITICS
OFF THE SHELF.
WHAT DOES ARISTOTLE SAY?
THAT LED ME TO READING WHAT THE
FOUNDERS READ, WHICH IS
DIFFERENT HOW WE THINK OF GREECE
AND ROME.
THEY HAD A DIFFERENT GREECE AND
ROME.
GREECE WAS SOMEWHERE OFF IN THE
BACKGROUND.
THEY DIDN’T REALLY CARE ABOUT
GREECE WITH A COUPLE OF
EXCEPTIONS.
THEY WERE VOERY FOCUSED ON ROMAN
HISTORY.
FOR EXAMPLE, THEY THOUGHT THE
LEADING PLAYWRIGHT OF THE
ANCIENT WORLD WAS TERRENCE.
TERRENCE WAS A COMIC PLAYWRIGHT
NOBODY READS TODAY.
THEY HAD A DIFFERENT WORLD THEY
LOOKED TO.
WHEN THEY SAID HOW DO YOU DESIGN
A REPUBLIC, THERE WEREN’T A LOT
OF EXAMPLES.
AND SO THEY LOOKED BACK
ESPECIALLY TO ANCIENT GREECE AND
ANCIENT ROME AND SAID WHERE DID
THEY GO WRONG?
FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE
CONCLUSIONS OF HISTORIANS ABOUT
THE ANCIENT WORLD WAS REPUBLICS
DON’T LAST LONG.
SO ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THEY HAD
GOING INTO THE CONSTITUTION WITH
MADISON ESPECIALLY WAS HOW DO
YOU MAKE A REPUBLIC LAST?
HOW DOES IT SUSTAIN ITSELF?
I THINK IF THEY CAME BACK TODAY
THEY WOULD BE PLEASANTLY
SURPRISED THAT THE MACHINE THEY
DESIGNED IN THE 18th CENTURY IS
STILL HERE MORE THAN 250 YEARS
LATER, STILL WORKING, PARTLY
BECAUSE THEY DESIGNED IT TO BE
CHANGED, TO BE FIXED, IT BE
AMENDED.
AND THEY HAD A LOT OF
AMENDMENTS.
THE EDUCATION OF THESE GUYS WERE
SO DIFFERENT THOUGH.
GEORGE WASHINGTON IS AN
UNEDUCATED MAN TO THE SHOCK OF
THE SORT OF VOLUBLE PEOPLE
AROUND HIM LIKE JOHN ADAMS AND
THOMAS JEFFERSON.
WASHINGTON IS VERY CONSCIOUS OF
THIS, HIS LACK OF EDUCATION, BUT
THE INTERESTING THING IS, I
THINK HE BECOMES A REAL GOOD
CRITICAL THINKER BECAUSE OF IT.
HE KNOWS HE IS NOT WELL
EDUCATED.
HE KNOWS HE IS NOT A GOOD
WRITER.
SO HE FINDS THIS KID ALEXANDER
HAMILTON, WHO IS A GREAT WRITER,
AND GETS HIM TO DO A LOT OF THE
WRITING FOR HIM DURING THE WAR.
JEFFERSON IS A VERY DIFFERENT
GUY.
KIND OF THE OUTLIER, MORE GREEK
THAN A ROMAN.
MORE INTO EPICUREAN THINKING
ABOUT HAPPINESS THAN STOWICCAL
THINKING LIKE WASHINGTON.
ADAMS IS THIS ALMOST A WOODY
ALLEN-LIKE FIGURE, WEARING HIS
HEART ON HIS SLEEVE.
BUT I THINK ADAMS ALSO HAS BEEN
A BIT TYPEDHYPED IN RECENT YEARS
IT WAS A DISASTER AS A
PRESIDENT.
HIS MOST SIGNIFICANT ACT ACT AS
PRESIDENT WAS PUTTING 25 JOURNAL
IS CRITICAL OF HIM SIMPLY IN
JAIL.
HE JUST PUT THEM IN JAIL FOR
BEING CRITICAL OF HIM.
HE THOUGHT THAT WAS TANTAMOUNT
TO TREASON.
YOU SHOULDN’T CRITICIZE THE
PRESIDENT.
AND JAMES MADISON, WHO I GREW SO
FOND OF AS I WROTE THIS BOOK.
MADISON IS SMALL.
HE HAS SOME FORM OF EPILEPSY, WE
THINK.
HE DOES NOT HAVE A GOOD SPEAKING
VOICE.
YET HE HAS ENORMOUS INFLUENCE
OVER HOW THE COUNTRY IS BUILT.
AND I THINK PLAYS AN IMPORTANT
ROLE NOT JUST WITH THE
CONSTITUTION, WHICH HE KIND OF
PROPOSED, LET’S HAVE A NEW
FUNDAMENTAL LAW OF THE LAND.
WE GOES TO THE MEETING WITH ALL
THESE GREEK AND ROMAN REFERENCES
HE SPENT FOUR YEARS STUDYING OF
HOW DO WE DESIGN A REPUBLIC, AND
THEN HE HELPS THE POLITICS OF
THE COUNTRY IN THE 1790s WHEN
ADAMS IS KIND OF FREAKING OUT AS
PRESIDENT SAYING NOBODY SHOULD
CRITICIZE ME, THAT’S ILLEGAL.
MADISON IS SAYING, NO, LET’S
HAVE POLITICS.
LET’S HAVE PARTY POLITICS.
LET’S HAVE FACTIONS THAT COMPETE
WITH EACH OTHER.
BECAUSE THAT WAY POWER IS SO