I just spent my first year as a free man after being wrongfully convicted and incarcerated for 23 years.
Do you hold any hatred/resentment toward the public defender that was unable to help you?
Or have you put all that behind you?
Ricky: Good question.
At first, I did - many years ago I did, then I didn’t, and now I do again.
It’s complicated!
Have you been compensated by the state for wrongful imprisonment?
Sean: Ricky has not been compensated; he has a team of lawyers working on that.
Barry Scheck has taken his case, so stay tuned!
What is a realistic expectation of what compensation is possible for Ricky?
Sean: What is realistic to expect for compensation?
That's hard to answer.
For most of my clients, the answer is $0 because of the doctrine of governmental immunity.
Clients either get nothing, or they get
millions.
Most get nothing.
Congrats on winning your freedom back!
I was wondering what was the first meal you had after release?
I think I would have gobbled down the biggest steak I could find.
Ricky: I did gobble down a steak, filet mignon.
French fries and a cold beer.
Did you tell the other inmates you were innocent?
Did they believe you?
When I was a kid I lost recess for writing on someone's desk, and I didn't do it.
I still think about that 25 years later.
Sooo I can't even
begin to imagine your frustration.
I'm glad to hear you're free
Ricky: Another perfect AMA question!
I always challenge people to imagine being accused of doing something they actually didn’t do, no matter how small it is.
You get it.
And I certainly did tell everybody I was
innocent, anybody with ears who would listen.
A vast majority did not believe me but the man on this session with me, Professor Sean O’Brien, did.
The honorable Judge Daren Adkins did as well, which has landed me on
this stage with you.
If someone finds themselves facing court with a public defender, do you think there’s anything they can do to assist in their own defence?
Sean: In Ricky's case, he made a good record by writing letters to his lawyer asking her to investigate his alibi and do other things for his defense.
These letters were very important later.
Can you tell us more about what discovery lead to your release and why it wasn't presented in the original trial?
Sean: It was an accumulation of facts.
Surprisingly, a confession by the real killer was not enough.
An admission by the only eyewitness that he lied when he identified Ricky was not enough.
It was finally the
evidence of a deposition taken by Ricky's co-defendant of the real killers--the co-defendant's alibi witnesses--that had been hidden from Ricky's trial attorney.
That evidence gave us a valid legal claim.
Innocence by itself is not enough, believe it or not.
What is the biggest misconception about prison?
Sean: That it rehabilitates.
Ricky: That’s easy!
The biggest misconception is that most of society believes that everybody is guilty, when that simply is not the case by far.
Another misconception is that everybody is
ruthless and violent, and that is also not the case.
What an absolute nightmare.
Did you learn any new skills (good or bad) whilst you were inside?
Ricky: A nightmare indeed.
As for the new skills that I learned: patience would be at the top of that list.
But I also learned basic computer skills.
I also learned office skills in the job that I was placed in.
I became a
certified dog trainer.
Aside from any job assignment, I also read over a thousand books over the course of those 23 years that have helped me adjust better than some of my other exoneree friends.
What’s the thing you’re most looking forward to about becoming a parent?
(I am so happy you are free to live your life!!!)
Ricky: The one thing I look forward to the most is being present after so many years of being absent.
It is so important to have the experience of being present.
I’ve been to every doctor’s appointment, I’ve watched
probably about 40 baby videos, and I’m already practicing my ga-ga, goo-goo.
Did you ever gave up on life when you realized that you maybe was gonna die in prison or did you always kept hope even after a decade and more behind bars?
Ricky: A mix of both.
Out front and publicly, I kept a strong face.
But at times, throughout the 23 years, I certainly was ready to give up and call it quits.
I honestly believe in the fact that because my legal team did not give up
on me, it made me ultimately not give up on myself.
Sean, I’m assuming you hear a lot of incarcerated people tell you they’re innocent and to get them out...what inspired you about Ricky’s story?
Sean: Ricky's case was brought to me by an investigator I know and trust, Dan Grothaus, and when I looked into his case I realized that every single public defender to touch his case screwed up something fundamental and
important.
In the 1980s, I was in charge of the office that later defended Ricky, and it made me sad to see how far down the standard of performance had sunk, so I felt a responsibility to Ricky.
Something needed to
be done, and nobody else was stepping up to the plate.
Thanks for everything you’re doing to make our country a better place.
What are some high yield solutions that we can implement to help fix the public defender system?
What specifically should we tell our
representatives to do?
Sean: The most promising solution is to implement a commitment to parity of funding and resources between indigent defense and prosecution.
That was done in the federal system in 1989, and you don't hear about
these problems in that system.
There are lots of other solutions that need to be implemented, such as reforming line-up and interrogation procedures in ways that reduce the likelihood of generating false evidence
without diminishing the likelihood of obtaining reliable evidence.
Do you think your time in prison has changed your personality?
Do you feel like a totally different person now?
Ricky: Yes, yes and yes.
Prison did change my personality.
I took life for granted in my youth.
Being wrongfully convicted caused me to sober up real quickly.
Today I appreciate not just the big things in life but the little
things as well, and always encourage others to do as well without having to lose their freedom.
What do you think is the biggest misconception about someone returning to the world after such large time away?
Ricky: I’m not sure what the biggest misconception is, but I can tell you what the biggest hurdle is: returning to the world after such a long time away.
Sean: Boy, there are so many hurdles.
Everybody wants to pick up right where they left off, and so many years have passed that that is virtually impossible to do.
And so I have clients who look back and all they can see is what they lost.
And I have clients who
look forward and marvel at the everyday life around them, the beautiful things in their future.
And I don't know how to help someone be someone who looks forward.
That’s the hardest part.
It’s been a beautiful
thing to watch Ricky hit the ground running, but I have other clients who struggle every day.
There’s also a difference in exonerees based on their experience inside prison, and the
people who have the hardest time adjusting are those who were on death row.
I have one who came within minutes of execution and was exposed to the danger of execution constantly in his last 18 months in prison
before we were able to free him, and he is literally disabled by his post-trauma stress disorder.
And so that’s hard.
Ricky has taken Joe Amrine out to get groceries.
I pay for his cell phone so he can at least have that bc he
lives on the back porch of his sister’s house, and if it weren’t for the kindness of strangers he’d have a hard, hard time even surviving.
What was the first thing you did after the time?
What turned out to be very difficult after two decades in jail?
Ricky: One of the first things I did was take a bath.
In prison, there’s only showers.
What turned out very difficult for me after two decades in prison was relationships.
I was used to being away from my family and I was
happy to be back around my family.
But I wasn’t as responsive as they would have hoped or as I would have thought.
Sometimes it just felt like I was still in jail when we were apart.
I still struggle with this
today.
What reforms would you prioritize to improve our criminal justice system?
Sean: First, level the playing field by funding public defender offices at the same level as prosecutors.
Until we have a fair balance of resources between prosecution and defense, no other reform will be effective.
Beyond just the public defender crisis, how do you feel about the emphasis on prosecutorial power?
How would you like to see that aspect of the system change?
Also, congrats on the release!
I wish you the
absolute best!
Sean: I like the system in the UK where both sides are represented by appointed counsel; an attorney can be appointed to prosecute one case while defending another case.
It keeps ideologues at bay.
Our problem is that
the office of prosecuting attorney is a stepping stone to higher office at the expense of defendants.
Any plans for Christmas for you two?
Ricky: Yep.
Quarantine.
I can’t believe I went from canteen in prison to quarantine!
May your day be filled with joy and happiness.
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