Thanks for joining us on 9 News Plus.
I'm Chris bianki.
Huge protests rocked China this month,
with thousands taking to the
streets to express a very rare and
widespread degree of anger with the
government for strict COVID lockdowns.
In response to those protests,
the Chinese government relaxed some
of its harshest COVID protocols.
I spoke with Suisheng Zhao,
the director of the Center for China
US cooperation at the University
of Denver's Joseph Corbell School.
Of International Studies on December the 6th.
For more about these remarkable protests
and what they mean now and going forward,
Professor Zhao from the Cornell School
of the University of Denver, thanks so
much for taking the time to join us.
I guess obviously we're going
to discuss many things with you,
but one of the top line takeaways,
I suppose worldwide over the last
week from China COVID related
protests encapsulating the country.
What's the latest on this and what is
prompting these somewhat surprising
nationwide protests here professor?
Because the people are frustrated
over the so-called 0 COVID policy
which has locked down the cities and
interrupt people's lives and other
people's suffering in the process.
In fact, the consequences of this type
of knockdowns have been much more serious
than the COVID itself and the whole event
in last week was triggered, I think by.
Two uh developments.
One was there is a fire in Xinjiang
which had about a dozen people died
because of the lockdown because all the
the entrance were blocked and the fire
and people could not even get into there.
So these people died for nothing and
people were angry at that the 2nd.
Triggered event I think was the World Cup.
People were told how serious the
COVID was and the China's lockdown
was necessary and successful.
But people certainly discovered the
world has not done what China did.
In the World Cup, thousands,
100,000 people gathered even without mask.
So they find the contrast
between China and the world.
So people people become.
Even more angry and frustrated,
they ask for freedom.
They ask for the opened up to.
The the lockdown.
That's how those widespread protests
coming up in China in last week.
So two things fire in the deadly
fire as well and the World Cup.
Those are the two main drivers.
Professor how rare is it to see such
public displays of opposition in China?
There are arrests, all these type of
protests that occasionally and spread it.
I mean fragmented in China in last 20-30
years, but this is the largest of the most
widespread since the Times Square in 1989.
But still I want my put this on in contest.
China has about 1.4 billion population,
so the scale of these protests
themselves are very impressive,
surprising and big.
But the scale is not big enough in.
In in the context of China to produce
some type of consequence to to to
threaten the authoritarian one party
rule in China and the Chinese Government
has responded to these protests.
Of course they will not admit they have
made mistakes they still consist insist
that they will continue the so-called 0
COVID policy but in the meantime they made.
Required adjustments in response
to those protests.
So those protests are rare,
and the leadership understands that this
is something they have to make response,
although they will not admit mistakes.
So if you're saying that
what what we're seeing,
even though these are widespread protests,
there's only a small segment of
the population that's we're seeing
because China is such a large
country with 1.4 billion people.
What is, how popular is or is not the
Communist government amongst the people?
What's your assessment about?
Overall becomes party one party rule
is still uh sustainable in China.
I will not the widely supported,
but what is alternative for the Chinese
people that's not clear and the corpse
party in in the last 70 years have
come up and downs and met a lot of the
changes and reforms in US 40 years.
She Jinping has we centralized power
in fact the reverse a lot of policy.
Reform. But for the Chinese people they
they are they knives have not seen much
changes and in fact I would argue that in
last 30-40 years China has done really well.
It can economically and the living standard
of the Chinese people have been increased.
So from that perspective
there are some distractions,
but the the overall legitimacy of the
Communist Party has been suspended by.
So-called the economic
performance legitimacy.
In the meantime they have also
played the card of nationalism,
try to describe how alternatives are even
worse and how the world is dangerous.
Western powers to try to
undermine the Chinas rise.
So in that context the Chinese people
have really not seen alternative.
They are problems,
but they hope the government could.
Improve my changes themselves instead
of to overthrow the Communist Party
or the one party rule and the plus
the government has been very very
looseness to suppress any type of
oppositions the the surveillance
state what people have described
China is it's a very very severe
for people to people to understand
what are the consequences if they.
Try to overthrow the government.
So in that case they accept the
current government if in the context
the if they continue their policy.
But these zero COVID policy has really
really ripped up a lot of peoples lives.
That's what we see this type
of protest in China.
So how strict are these?
You mentioned the 0 COVID policy.
What does that mean for the average person?
What can they not do? Compared to say,
people here in the United States,
there are so many restrictions.
They are locked down in their home
for weeks if not months. Wow.
And they don't have any supplies
for their goods and they have
to have a COVID test every day.
Uh, sometimes twice a day.
And they could travel,
could not travel to anywhere,
even if also if they got sick.
They cannot talk to all hospitals without
the the negative results of tests.
So the the sufferings of the people,
I think we cannot imagine from the West,
from the United States.
It's horrible, horrible.
I've heard so many,
so many negative stories, not only those.
People who had medical problems
suffer or die in the process.
Another people get into depressed,
they just jump out of their building.
The from I mean it's so,
so serious, so horrible.
I think it's it's horrible situation
that's why people came out to the streets.
So considering that it does seem to me,
and correct me if I'm wrong,
that the majority of people,
the government, the media,
average people in China seem surprised
by the depth of these protests.
And considering how restrictive
these lockdown measures are,
why are people so surprised by the
amount of outcry that's come from the
amount of protests that's happened?
I don't know if people
surprised in the West here.
These people have not seen those type
of protests in China for quite a while.
And also I think maybe another thing
I want to point out is that there
are some misperceptions in the West.
People thought that this kind of
protest is going to overthrow the
communist regime and also people
are demanding for democracy.
Perhaps some people among those crowds
are demanding for democracy and also
for through getting rid of these comments.
Party regime, but that's not the
the majority is demand people here,
Chinese people.
I think at this stage as I said they
don't see alternatives and there is
no organized opposition in China that
could gain support among the Chinese people.
So their protest,
it's just against those specific policies.
So from that perspective,
I don't know how much we in the West.
We should expect that will bring
fundamental change in China.
So from that perspective you
asked for the surprise.
It's it's surprised because not
many people has in the past,
but should not have a misperception
say oh because the surprise
becomes party will be over.
That will not be the case, at least for now.
Xinping has been so,
so ruthless and powerful today we just had,
we just saw the end of the conclusion
of the 20th Party Congress.
That he took the third term which has
not happened in last several decades
and also he put all his knowledge
into the top leadership position.
There is no other factions or any
people could challenge his role.
So in that case I don't see any possibility.
People can talk and he is a couple.
His role and the regime will be changed.
So from that perspective,
people are surprised,
but should not be surprised or not
have a surprise that the regime
change will take place in China.
So this is essentially what you're
saying is don't read into it too much,
that this is a pretty strict protest against
the 0 COVID policies of the government
at this time. Majority of people,
I think those are in their mind and
if that if in fact the Communist Party
regime has making some adjustments
and when they try to open that up,
I think a lot of people in China were scared.
They said if the government
would not take care of us.
And if we don't take a test every day,
how can we be sure that will not be affected,
infected and we will make
sure they are in the house.
So it's a very different situation in China.
In the US, if we don't see a emperor,
we see that freedom.
That's an opportunity for freedom.
In China, not people are so afraid if
there is no emperor, how we can survive?
They don't see that as opportunity
for freedom.
They have a large.
Patients for the government to take care
of them, to take responsibilities for them.
This is the government,
not as evil as we see in the West.
This is the government as something
necessity for their daily life.
And the problem now for the
government is that they have not
taken their responsibilities well.
They must have missed made mistakes.
So they expect the government to
correct their mistakes in the meantime,
they will not.
If the government should not take
care of them, that's the problem.
When we saw opening up in some cities,
people are even not there to go to
the streets because they say, oh wow,
it's so dangerous. It's so ironical.
In the Chinese situation?
So what do you expect? To come from this,
if anything in the coming weeks,
months, whether you expect the next
few weeks, months to look like,
I think the demonstration is not really over.
And the government is making
gradual adjustments open up some
parts of those restrictions,
but they still insist that the
0 COVID policy will continue and
they will continue to try to still
keep some of those restrictions.
But the problem,
I think for the government is that
we have never met a exit strategy.
It's either.
0 COVID all completely opened up.
There is no clear transition from
the 0 COVID to a complete open up.
So there are so many chaotic
situations in China today,
and in that context I think people are still.
Kind of confused and not happy,
but eventually I think those restrictions
would be relaxed sometime next
year and now that for now people,
not only those inconvenience,
inconvenience of their lives and our economy,
the economy is suffering by
this lockdown and restrictions.
So if they opened it up and economic
activities restored, I think.
Eventually the situation will
come back to a new normal,
which is that people will be busy
at their economic activities.
Daily life would would be restored.
If there is a larger there,
there is not a larger scale of break out.
I mean the, the, the, the, the cases.
Which I don't know if that will happen.
OK. Well, I must say this is a
fascinating degree of context and
helpful insight to Professor.
So I really appreciate you joining us
here for a few minutes of your time and
letting us your expertise about this
certainly horrible but also fascinating
dynamic that's going on in China.
Thank you so much, Professor.
You are welcome. My pleasure anytime.