RUSSIANS THINK THEY DON'T HAVE
A GOOD HAND.
THANK YOU.
>>> LET'S DIG DEEPER INTO WHAT
IS GOING ON IN MOSCOW.
JOINING ME NOW, TWO PEOPLE WHO
HAVE A PRETTY GOOD SENSE,
MICHAEL McFALL, FORMER
AMBASSADOR TO RUSSIA, AND GARY
COSMONAUT.
MIKE, LET ME START WITH YOU.
CHINA AND RUSSIA, AND THIS
ALLIANCE, OBVIOUSLY, WE ARE
CONCERNED ABOUT IT.
HOW SERIOUSLY DO YOU TAKE CHINA
AND THE THREAT TO PROVIDE LEGAL
AID TO RUSSIA?
>> THEY HAVEN'T THREATENED
THAT, CHUCK.
THEY SAY THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT.
THEY HAVE STAYED WITH THAT, AND
UP UNTIL THIS WEEKEND, I'VE
BEEN IMPRESSED BY WHAT THEY
HAVEN'T DONE.
THEY HAVEN'T PROVIDED THESE
TECHNOLOGIES.
THEY HAVEN'T PROVIDED MILITARY
ASSISTANCE, AND WHEN XI
JINGPING SAT DOWN WITH PUTIN
LAST TIME, PUTIN WENT OUT OF
HIS WAY TO SAY, TAIWAN IS
YOURS.
THAT IS YOUR TERRITORY, AND XI
DID NOT RETURN THE FAVOR IN
THE WAY HE TALKED ABOUT IT.
HOWEVER, WHEN THE VICE
PRESIDENT, AT THE MUNICH
SECURITY CONFERENCE, WHEN SHE
WENT OUT OF HER WAY TO PUT THAT
MARKER DOWN, AND THEN ANTHONY
BLANKET DID IT THE DAY AFTER,
THAT SUGGESTS TO ME THAT THEY
ARE SEEING SOMETHING IN THE
INTELLIGENCE, THAT SOMETHING IS
HAPPENING THEY ARE TRYING TO
HIDE, AND THEY CHOSE TO TRY AND
EMBARRASS THE CHINESE.
I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, BUT
YOU DON'T PUT THINGS LIKE THAT
IN THE VICE PRESIDENT'S SPEECH,
UNLESS YOU HAVE HARD EVIDENCE
TO SUGGEST THEY ARE ABOUT TO DO
THAT.
>> INTERESTING YOU PUT IT THAT
WAY.
WHETHER HOW TRUE IT IS OR NOT,
MAKES THEM DENY IT.
IT SEEMS THAT THEY WANTED TO
PUT THAT PRESSURE ON THE
CHINESE.
>> ABSOLUTELY. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
BAD TIME TO SHOW UP IN MOSCOW.
I DON'T KNOW IF THAT TIMING WAS
PLANNED.
I WANT TO BE CLEAR.
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THE
U.S. GOVERNMENT KNOWS ABOUT
MILITARY ASSISTANCE, AND SO FAR,
BEIJING HAS NOT, PUBLICLY, SAID
THEY ARE DOING IT.
MY GUESS IS THEY WERE TRYING TO
DO IT QUIETLY, AND WE FOUND
OUT, AND NOW WE HAVE CALLED
THEIR BLUFF.
THEY ARE TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT
TO DO NOW. >> GARY, WE ARE A YEAR INTO
>> GARY, WE ARE A YEAR INTO
THIS WAR, AND I KNOW YOU WERE
TRUSTING THAT PUTIN'S EYES WERE
BIGGER THAN HIS
>>>, BUT HERE WE ARE A YEAR IN.
WHAT DOES THE WEST NEED TO DO
TO GET WHAT JOE BIDEN CALLS A
STRATEGIC DEFEAT FOR RUSSIA.
THEN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT
THAT PHRASE.
WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO GET TO THAT GOAL?
TO THAT GOAL?
>> MORE WEAPONS TO UKRAINE, AND
FOR UKRAINE TO WIN THE WAR.
UKRAINE'S VICTORY WILL INCLUDE
ALL OF THE TERRITORIES,
COMPENSATION, REPARATIONS, AND
AN INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL FOR
WAR CRIMES AND GENOCIDE.
IT IS VERY CLEAR TO ME THAT AS
LONG AS PUTIN IS IN CONTROL,
THE WORLD WILL NOT STOP.
>> DO YOU BELIEVE THE WEST IS
SPEAKING WITH CLEAR ENOUGH
OBJECTIVES?
>> IT'S GETTING BETTER, BUT WE
ARE NOT YET THERE.
IT IS QUITE A LONG ROAD FROM
UKRAINE SHOULD LOSE TO RUSSIA
SHOULD WIN, TO ALWAYS UKRAINE
MUST WIN.
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TRIP TO KYIV
WAS A BIG MILESTONE.
IT WAS AN AMAZING MOVE, A VERY
BOLD MOVE.
COMBINING THIS HISTORIC TRIP
WITH HIS SPEECH AT WARSAW, I
THINK IT IS A CLEAR MESSAGE
THAT AMERICA IS ALMOST READY TO
GO AS FAR AS IT TAKES FOR
UKRAINE TO WIN.
I THINK PUTIN ALSO UNDERSTANDS
THAT, BECAUSE HIS SPEECH WAS SO
WEAK AND PATHETIC, AND THAT'S
WHY I'M NOT WORRIED TOO MUCH
ABOUT CHINESE MOVES BEHIND THE
SCENES, BECAUSE I BELIEVE CHINA
CARES ABOUT TAIWAN.
WHAT I THINK THEY ARE TRYING TO
DO IS SEND A MESSAGE TO
AMERICA.
YOU MENTIONED OPPORTUNITIES.
LET'S MAKE A DEAL.
WE CARE ABOUT TAIWAN, YOU CARE
ABOUT UKRAINE, BUT WE DON'T
CARE VERY MUCH ABOUT PUTIN.
THEY ALWAYS SOUGHT PUTIN AS A
JUNIOR PARTNER IN THIS
RELATIONSHIP.
I THINK IT IS ABOUT THE CHINESE
TRYING TO GET A BETTER
BARGAINING POSITION.
>> I WANT TO GO BACK TO
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S TRIP TO KYIV.
I DON'T KNOW WHY, BUT IT IS IN
REGISTERING HERE IN AMERICA,
THE SUPPORT.
HE IS HAVING A HARD TIME
SELLING THIS, POLITICALLY, AND
HE REALLY DOCTOR AMERICAN LIVES
HAVE NOT BEEN LOST.
THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS WHERE
YOU WOULD NORMALLY THINK HE IS
CONDUCTING THIS THE WAY THE
AMERICAN PUBLIC HAS SAID THEY
WANT OUR FOREIGN EXPEDITIONS
CONDUCTED.
IN SOME WAYS, IT'S A NET
NEGATIVE.
>> YEAH, IT IS STRIKING.
IT'S DISAPPOINTING TO ME,
BECAUSE I THINK HE HAS PLAYED IT
IN A VERY PRECISE WAY, TO GIVE
THE UKRAINIANS SUPPORT, BUT NOT
HAVE OUR SOLDIERS THERE.
I'M WITH GARY, BY THE WAY.
IF YOU WANT VICTORY, WE HAVE TO
DO MORE.
WE ARE NOT GIVING THEM THE
WEAPONS THEY NEED FOR THIS
COUNTEROFFENSIVE THEY ARE
PLANNING FOR THE SPRING, AND I
THINK TIME IS GOING TO RUN OUT.
POLITICALLY, TIME IS GOING TO
RUN OUT.
I WILL TRY TO TALK OVER THAT
MUSIC.
>> THAT THE BIDENS MUSIC.
YOU ARE ALL RIGHT.
THAT WAS HIS WALKOUT MUSIC.
>> BUT, I THINK IT IS STRIKING
TO ME THAT THEY DON'T SEE THE
ESSENCE OF TIME IN THE SAME WAY
I DO.
I SEE IT ON THE GROUND, BUT
ALSO FOR BIDENS OWN RE-ELECTION
PROCESS.
NOW IS THE TIME FOR
BREAKTHROUGH.
IF THERE IS NOT A BREAKTHROUGH,
AND YOU ARE THE POLITICAL
EXPERT, NOT ME, BUT IF THIS IS
GRINDING ON AS WE ROLL INTO THE
PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION NEXT
YEAR, THAT IS NOT A GOOD LOOK
FOR BIDEN.
>> THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE
DOMESTIC POLITICAL SUPPORT FOR
THIS IN A THIRD YEAR OF A
STALEMATE.
GARY, I'M CURIOUS.
THE NEW YORK TIMES DID A PIECE
OVER THE WEEKEND THAT INDICATED
THAT, BELIEVE IT OR NOT, ONE
YOU'RE IN, IT LOOKS LIKE PUTIN
IS MORE POPULAR , AND HAS MORE
OF A STRANGLEHOLD ON THE
POPULATION.
DO YOU CONCUR WITH THAT?
>> NOBODY KNOWS.
THE POLLS IN RUSSIA ARE
CONVICTED BY THE ORIGINAL
METHOD, BUT NINE OUT OF 10 OF
THOSE BEING ASKED SIMPLY DON'T
ANSWER THE QUESTION.
ON THE SURFACE, YES, HE LOOKS
POPULAR.
HITLER WAS VERY POPULAR IN 1944
GERMANY.
WHO CARES?
I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD APPLY
THE SAME MEASURES THAT ARE
BEING USED TO UNDERSTAND THE
LEVEL OF SUPPORT.
41% OF AMERICANS APPROVE OF
PRESIDENT BIDEN'S HANDLING OF
THE WAR IN UKRAINE.
I DON'T THINK WE CAN USE THE
SAME METRICS IN RUSSIA OR ANY
DICTATORSHIP.
WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT PUTIN
CONTROLLED HIS INFORMATION
BUBBLE, AND UNFORTUNATELY,
WHAT THE WESTERN PUBLIC SEES IS
RUSSIA IS LOSING, NO MATTER
WHAT AMERICAN GENERALS OR
POLITICIANS SAY.
RUSSIA ISN'T LOSING THE WAR
BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE
THEY ARE LOSING THE WAR.
THE MOMENT THE RUSSIAN PUBLIC
UNDERSTANDS THE WAR IS BEING
LOST, THEN YOU WILL SEE PUTIN
CRUMBLE.
>> IT'S FUNNY.
CRIMEA IS CONSIDERED PUTIN'S
REDLINE.
YOU THINK IT IS THE PUBLIC'S
REDLINE?
>> IT'S BOTH. CRIMEA IS A STAPLE OF PUTIN
CRIMEA IS A STAPLE OF PUTIN MYTHOLOGY.
>> I ALWAYS FEEL SMARTER ABOUT