THIS WEEK, MR. BIDEN SPOKE WITH
KING SALMAN.
WE DO NOT KNOW IF THE KHASHOGGI
KILLING WAS DISCUSSED.
JOINING US NOW IS JOHN BRENNAN,
FORMER DIRECTOR OF THE CIA.
HE IS AN MSNBC SENIOR NATIONAL
SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE
ANALYTICAL AND THE AUTHOR OF
"UNDAUNTED: MY FIGHT AGAINST
AMERICA’S ENEMIES AT HOME AND
ABROAD."
DIRECTOR BRENNAN, GOOD EVENING.
>> GOOD EVENING, JOSHUA.
>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS
REPORT?
I FEEL LIKE IT SAYS THINGS THAT
WE ALL KIND OF KNEW AND/OR
EXPECTED FOR A LONG TIME AND
WE’RE JUST KIND OF WONDERING IF
AND WHEN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT
WOULD JUST SAY THEM OUT LOUD.
>> WELL, I AGREE WITH YOU,
JOSHUA.
I DON’T THINK THERE WAS ANYTHING
REALLY KNEW THAT CAME OUT IN
THIS DECLASSIFIED INTELLIGENCE
ASSESSMENT.
IT HOLDS MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN,
THE CROWN PRINCE OF SAUDI
ARABIA, RESPONSIBLE FOR THE
MURDER AND THE HORRIFIC
DISMEMBERMENT OF JAMAL KHASHOGGI
WHO AT THE TIME WAS A RESIDENT
OF THE UNITED STATES AND A
COLUMNIST FOR "THE WASHINGTON
POST."
BUT I THINK WE ARE STILL TO HEAR
FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
ABOUT WHAT ACCOUNTABLE MOHAMMED
BIN SALMAN WILL HAVE FOR THIS
MURDER, BECAUSE IT’S QUITE CLEAR
TO ME THAT ALTHOUGH THE
ASSESSMENT SAYS HE ORDER THE
CAPTURE OR KILLING OF JAMAL
KHASHOGGI, I BELIEVE THOSE SAUDI
AGENTS WHO CONDUCTED THE MURDER
DID SO AT THE DIRECTION OF
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN.
IT’S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE, WORKING
MANY YEARS WITH THE SAUDIS, THAT
THEY WOULD NOT HAVE CARRIED OUT
THAT TYPE OF ACT WITHOUT THE
EXPLICIT AUTHORIZATION FROM ON
HIGH.
AND INDEED THAT DECLASSIFIED
ASSESSMENT SAYS THAT HIS,
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN’S
UNDERLINGS, WOULD NOT HAVE
CARRIED OUT SUCH A SENSITIVE
OPERATION WITHOUT THE CROWN
PRINCE’S EXPLICIT ORDERS.
AGAIN, I THINK THERE’S STILL
SOME RECKONING AND
ACCOUNTABILITY THAT HAS TO BE
METED OUT FOR THE CROWN PRINCE’S
ORDER TO KILL JAMAL KHASHOGGI.
>> CHUCK TODD ASKED CANADA’S
PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU
ABOUT THE CANADIAN/SAUDI
RELATIONSHIP ON "MEET THE PRESS"
AND MR. TRUDEAU WAS VERY
MEASURED IN THE WAY HE DESCRIBED
THAT RELATIONSHIP.
WATCH.
>> IS SAUDI ARABIA AN ALLY TO
CANADA?
>> NO, I WOULDN’T SAY THAT.
THEY’RE A COUNTRY WE DO BUSINESS
WITH.
THEY’RE A COUNTRY THAT WE
CONTINUALLY ADVOCATE FOR GREATER
TRANSPARENCY, GREATER HUMAN
RIGHTS, PROTECTION OF WOMEN, OF
ACTIVISTS.
THERE ARE A LOT OF CHALLENGES.
THEY WERE THE HOST OF THE G7 --
SORRY, THE G20, LAST YEAR WHICH
MEANT WE CERTAINLY ENGAGED WITH
THEM.
I ALSO DIRECTLY BROUGHT UP THE
ISSUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND WE’LL
ALWAYS DO THAT WHENEVER I ENGAGE
WITH PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD WHO
NEED TO BE -- WHO NEED TO HAVE
THAT HIGHLIGHTED.
>> SO DIRECTOR BRENNAN, WHAT DO
YOU THINK OUR FUTURE
RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA
IS LOOKING LIKE?
I THINK OUR RELATIONSHIP HINGES
ON A FEW THINGS, OIL AND ENERGY,
WHICH SAUDI ARABIA IS STILL A
SIGNIFICANT PRODUCER OF ALTHOUGH
WE’RE SLOWLY MOVING AWAY TO
DIFFERENT SOURCES OF ENERGY, AND
REGIONAL SECURITY IN THE MIDDLE
EAST, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CONTROL
OF HOLY SITES IN MECCA.
WHAT SHOULD OUR RELATIONSHIP BE
WITH THEM?
>> WELL, THE UNITED STATES AND
SAUDI ARABIA HAVE HAD A LONG
STANDING STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP.
I THINK IT’S VERY IMPORTANT TO
BOTH COUNTRIES, AS YOU POINT
OUT.
IT RUNS THE GAMUT FROM ENERGY TO
SECURITY, COUNTERTERRORISM, AND
ECONOMICS.
AND SO THEREFORE I DO THINK IT’S
IMPORTANT THAT WE MAINTAIN THE
STRENGTH OF THAT RELATIONSHIP.
HOWEVER, I DON’T THINK WE SHOULD
TURN A BLIND EYE AT ALL TO
THINGS THAT SAUDI LEADERS DO,
INCLUDING MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN.
AND THEREFORE I DO THINK IT HAS
TO BE -- HE HAS TO HAVE A CLEAR
SIGNAL SENT TO HIM THAT CARRYING
OUT THESE TYPES OF ACTIVITIES,
OPPRESSING, SUPPRESSING, AND
RUTHLESSLY KILLING ANY SAUDI
ACTIVIST WHO DARES TO SPEAK OUT
AGAIN HIM, IS SOMETHING THAT
SHOULDN’T BE TOLERATED.
I DO THINK WE CAN DISTINGUISH
BETWEEN THE STRATEGIC
PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN OUR TWO
COUNTRIES AND THE ACTIONS OF ONE
MAN.
AND THAT’S WHY I’M REALLY HOPING
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS
GOING TO HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE.
SAYING HE’S NOT GOING TO COME TO
THE UNITED STATES FOR ANY
OFFICIAL OR PERSONAL VISITS,
THAT HE’S NOT GOING TO HAVE
SENIOR LEVEL MEETINGS WITH THE
BIDEN ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I THINK
HAS TO BE MADE VERY CLEAR, NOT
JUST TO MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN AND
THE REST OF THE SAUDI
GOVERNMENT, BUT ALSO TO OTHER
GOVERNMENTS THROUGHOUT THE
REGION, THAT THEY CANNOT GET
AWAY WITH THIS, BECAUSE THE
BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO
HOLD THEM TO CERTAIN STANDARDS
IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND
VALUES AND THEREFORE I THINK
IT’S IMPORTANT THAT THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION CARRY OUT NOT
JUST THE UNCLASSIFIED ASSESSMENT
SAYING THAT HE WAS RESPONSIBLE,
BUT AGAIN, HOLDING HIM
ACCOUNTABLE AND HAVING SOME
CONSEQUENCES AS A RESULT.
>> THIS FEELS LIKE THE KIND OF
THING THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN AND
THE ADMINISTRATION POSITIVELY
HAS TO GET RIGHT FOR AN ARRAY OF
REASONS, NOT ONLY BECAUSE OF
SAUDI ARABIA’S IMPORTANCE JUST
IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT ALSO THE
FACT THAT SAUDI ARABIA HAS PROXY
INVOLVEMENTS IN OTHER PARTS OF
THE MIDDLE EAST, YEMEN AND
ELSEWHERE.
IT’S A MAJOR PLAYER IN THE ARAB
LEAGUE.
IT’S ALSO GOT A GROWING OR AN
EVOLVING PROFILE ON THE WORLD
STAGE THROUGH THE CROWN PRINCE,
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, WHO HAS
BEEN MAKING A NAME FOR HIMSELF,
TRYING TO MODERNIZE SAUDI
ARABIA, OPEN IT UP TO DIFFERENT
KINDS OF INVESTMENTS, ALLOWING
WOMEN TO DRIVE CARS, THINGS LIKE
THAT.
SO IT FEELS LIKE THERE ARE A
WHOLE LOT OF THREADS THAT PULL
AT THE SAME TIME IF PRESIDENT
BIDEN DOES ANYTHING.
IT FEELS LIKE THE RISK OF
GETTING SOMETHING WRONG IS HIGH.
>> YES.
AND AS YOU POINT OUT, THERE HAVE
BEEN SOME POSITIVE DEVELOPMENTS
IN SAUDI ARABIA SINCE MOHAMMED
BIN SALMAN BECAME THE DE FACTO
DAY TO DAY LEADER.
U.S. POINT ROUTER THERE HAS BEEN
SOME MODERNIZATION INSIDE THE
KINGDOM.
WOMEN HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO DRIVE
AND OTHER REFORMS THAT I THINK
HAVE BEEN LONG OVERDUE.
AT THE SAME TIME, MOHAMMED BIN
SALMAN WAS THE ONE WHO DIRECTED
THIS MILITARY ADVENTURE IN YEMEN
THAT HAS LED TO THOUSANDS UPON
THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT DEATHS,
AND WHICH HAS GONE ON FOR TOO
LONG.
WE NEED TO HAVE THIS GOOD
RELATIONSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA.
IT’S VERY IMPORTANT.
SAUDI ARABIA’S STABILITY AND ITS
FUTURE IS IMPORTANT TO THE
UNITED STATES.
AS WE DEAL WITH VARIOUS PROBLEMS
IN THE MIDDLE EAST INCLUDING THE
IRANIAN ISSUE AS FAR AS NUCLEAR
WEAPONS DEVELOPMENT IS
CONCERNED.
BUT AGAIN, THAT DOES NOT MEAN
THAT WE SHOULD BE TURNING A
BLIND EYE TO THIS THE WAY THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DID.
AND UNFORTUNATELY I THINK
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN FELT AS
THOUGH HE COULD GET AWAY WITH
THESE TYPES OF ACTIVITIES
BECAUSE HE HAD SUCH A COZY
RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRUMP
WHITE HOUSE.
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TO
LET MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, AND AS
YOU POINT OUT SO RIGHTLY, OTHERS
THROUGHOUT THE REGION KNOW THAT
THERE IS A NEW DAY IF WASHINGTON
RIGHT NOW UNDER THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION AND IF THEY DO
THINGS LIKE THIS, THERE WILL BE
ACCOUNTABILITY.
>> BEFORE I HAVE TO LET YOU GO,
WHAT IS AMERICA’S STRONGEST
POINT OF LEVERAGE OVER SAUDI
ARABIA?
DO WE HAVE ANY LEVERAGE OVER
THEM?
>> SAUDI ARABIA NEEDS US MUCH
MORE THAN WE NEED SAUDI ARABIA.
OF COURSE WE WANT THEM TO BE A
PRODUCTIVE FORCE IN THE REGION
AS FAR AS ENERGY, SECURITY,
OTHER TYPE OF THINGS.
BUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE
UNITED STATES IS CRITICALLY
IMPORTANT TO SAUDI ARABIA.
THEY KNOW THAT THEY LIVE IN A
DANGEROUS NEIGHBORHOOD.
YOU LOOK AT YEMEN, YOU LOOK AT
SYRIA, IRAQ, IRAN.
THE UNITED STATES IS THE
SECURITY GUARANTOR FOR THE
KINGDOM.
WE WILL CONTINUE TO BE THAT.
BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY
SHOULD TAKE THE RELATIONSHIP FOR
GRANTED.
AND THAT DOESN’T MEAN WE SHOULD