WELCOME BACK, MORE 3
INTERVIEW WITH PHILIP MUDD. 3
FIVE YEARS AGO THE SENATE 3
SELECT COMMITTEE ON 3
INTELLIGENCE RELEASED A REPORT 3
ON THE C.I.A.'S DETENTION AND 3
INTERROGATION PROGRAM. 3
IT CONCLUDED, AMONG OTHER 3
THINGS, THAT THE C.I.A.'S 3
ENHANCED INTERROGATION 3
TECHNIQUES WERE NOT EFFECTIVE 3
AND THAT PROGRAM DAMAGED OUR 3
STANDING IN THE WORLD. 3
MUDD DISAGREE THE. 3
LET'S TALK ABOUT THE 3
EFFECTIVENESS OF IT, HOW YOU 3
ARRIVED AT THE CONCLUSION THAT 3
THAT WOULD BE THE APPROPRIATE 3
WAY TO GET LIFE-SAVING 3
INFORMATION THAT WOULD PROTECT 3
AMERICANS. 3
JOHN McCAIN SAID THESE TYPES OF 3
PRACTICES NOT ONLY FAILED THEIR 3
PURPOSE TO GET ACTIONABLE 3
INTELLIGENCE TO PREVENT FURTHER 3
ATTACKS, BUT DAMAGED OUR 3
REPUTATION AS A FORCE FOR GOOD 3
AROUND THE WORLD. 3
DID THIS DAMAGE OUR REPUTATION 3
AROUND THE WORLD, AND DID THIS 3
MAKE US SAFER? 3
I'M NOT SURE IT DAMAGED OUR 3
REPUTATION. 3
I THINK -- JOHN McCAIN, TO BE 3
FAIR TO SENATOR McCAIN, HE WAS 3
A GREAT SENATOR. 3
HE WAS ONE OF THOSE THAT WAS 3
BRIEFED, HE WAS THE ONLY ONE 3
THAT MY COLLEAGUES REMEMBER 3
SAYING YOU CAN'T DO THIS, OTHER 3
SENATORS WERE NOT THAT DIRECT. 3
THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT 3
QUESTIONS. 3
ONE IS WHETHER THIS IS RIGHT 3
FOR AMERICA, AND PEOPLE SINCE 3
2002, 2003 HAVE SAID, NO, IT'S 3
NOT. 3
I THINK THAT'S FAIR. 3
THERE'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION, 3
AND THIS IS REALLY FRUSTRATING 3
FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME. 3
THERE'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION 3
THAT SAYS DID YOU GET 3
INFORMATION THAT WAS VALUABLE? 3
MY ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY. 3
SO MANY PEOPLE WANT TO SAY, 3
WELL, THIS DOESN'T WORK, 3
THEREFORE WHY WOULD YOU EVER DO 3
IT? 3
WELL, LET ME TELL YOU 3
SOMETHING. 3
IF YOU PUT SOMEBODY UNDER 3
DURESS AND THEY REALIZE THAT IF 3
THEY LIE YOU'RE GONNA KNOW IT, 3
LET ME TELL YOU SOMETHING, 3
THEY'RE GOING TO TALK. 3
BUT THERE'S ALSO A BODY OF 3
EVIDENCE THAT SAYS THEY'RE 3
GOING TO TELL YOU WHATEVER YOU 3
WANT TO HEAR TO GET OUT OF THIS 3
WHAT SOME MIGHT CALL TORTURE 3
AND OTHERS MIGHT CALL ENHANCED 3
INTERROGATION TECHNIQUES. 3
THAT'S A RARE MOMENT. 3
LET ME TELL YOU, NONSENSE. 3
TWO DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF 3
PEOPLE. 3
ONE IS PERSON X. I DON'T KNOW 3
ANYTHING ABOUT THEM, THEREFORE 3
I CAN'T DETERMINE WHETHER 3
THEY'RE LYING. 3
I WOULD AGREE. 3
YOU CAN'T INTERROGATE THOSE 3
PEOPLE USING THE TECHNIQUES THE 3
C.I.A. 3
USED. 3
LET ME GIVE YOU A DIFFERENT 3
CATEGORY, AND THIS IS A LITTLE 3
BIT COMPLICATED, BUT I THINK 3
FASCINATING. 3
CATEGORY TWO, PERSON Y, YOU'VE 3
COLLECTED INTELLIGENCE ON THEM 3
FOR YEARS, YOU KNOW WHERE THEY 3
TRAVEL, YOU KNOW WHO THEIR 3
FRIENDS ARE, YOU KNOW HOW THEY 3
COMMUNICATE, YOU KNOW WHAT 3
THEIR ROLE IS IN AL-QAIDA, YOU 3
PUT THEM IN FRONT OF YOU. 3
WE USED TO USE THE TERM BOX 3
THEM, YOU BOX THEM. 3
WHERE DID YOU TRAVEL THREE 3
YEARS AGO, AND THEY LIE, THEY 3
LIST PLACES AND SKIP THE 3
SEVENTH. 3
THAT LIE, A, TELLS YOU 3
SOMETHING, THEY'RE NOT 3
COOPERATEITIVE YET. 3
AND IT ALSO TELLS YOU THE 3
SEVENTH PLACE THAT THEY 3
SKIPPED, THAT THEY FAILED TO 3
MENTION, WHY DID THEY FAIL TO 3
MENTION THAT? 3
IT'S IMPORTANT TO THEM. 3
MY POINT IS PEOPLE WHO AREN'T 3
UNDER DURESS LIE, PEOPLE WHO 3
ARE UNDER DURESS LIE UNLESS YOU 3
KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE PERSON 3
YOU'RE INTERROGATING, YOU 3
CANNOT SUBJECT THEM TO 3
AGGRESSIVE INTERROGATION 3
TECHNIQUES BECAUSE YOU DON'T 3
KNOW WHEN THEY'RE LYING OR NOT. 3
AND IF YOU DO KNOW WHEN THEY 3
LIE, THAT LIE CAN BE REALLY 3
VALUABLE. 3
WHY DID THEY SKIP THE SEVENTH 3
CITY THAT THEY VISITED? 3
WHY DID THEY SKIP THAT? 3
I THINK IT WAS BECAUSE IT WAS 3
REALLY VALUABLE AND THEY WANT 3
TO PROTECT IT. 3
THE LIES SOMETIMES ARE AS 3
IMPORTANT AS THE TRUTHS. 3
SO IT'S YOUR POSITION THAT 3
THIS WORKED AND YOU WOULD DO IT 3
AGAIN? 3
NO. 3
THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT 3
QUESTIONS. 3
SHOULD AMERICA DO IT, AND IS IT 3
SOMETHING THAT GETS AMERICA 3
INFORMATION OF VALUE? 3
PEOPLE SPEAK UNDER DURESS, AS I 3
MENTIONED, IF YOU KNOW ABOUT 3
THEIR BACKGROUND ENOUGH TO BOX 3
THEM. 3
BUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE 3
SPOKEN, AND THE C.I.A., THE 3
FBI, PEOPLE THINK THAT PEOPLE 3
LIKE ME -- I MEET PEOPLE ON THE 3
STREET, EVERYDAY THEY COME UP 3
TO ME, AND SOMETIMES IT FEELS 3
LIKE THEY THINK I LANDED FROM 3
MARS. 3
I GREW UP IN CORAL GABLES, I 3
PLAYED BASEBALL HERE IN MIAMI. 3
I FISHED IN THE CANALS AND GOT 3
THROWN OUT OF CANALS. 3
YOU GOT THROWN OUT OF A LOT 3
OF PLACES, I THINK. 3
REALLY, WE DON'T NEED TO GO 3
INTO THAT. 3
MY POINT IS THE PEOPLE WHO DO 3
THIS, THE PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE 3
TRUE AMERICANS. 3
WE GREW UP NEXT TO YOU. 3
THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA HAVE 3
SPOKEN AFTER 9/11, NOT ONLY 3
BECAUSE THEY THINK WHAT WE DID 3
MIGHT NOT HAVE REPRESENTED 3
AMERICAN VALUES, PEOPLE DIFFER 3
ON THAT, BUT ALSO BECAUSE THERE 3
HAVEN'T BEEN SUBSEQUENT ATTACKS 3
AND PEOPLE SAY WE'RE SAFER NOW, 3
WE DON'T HAVE TO BE IN THAT 3
PLACE. 3
GOD FORBID WE SHOULD GO THERE 3
AGAIN. 3
LET ME BE CLEAR. 3
PEOPLE IN MY WORLD WOULD SAY WE 3
WILL NEVER GO THERE AGAIN, WE 3
WON'T DO THAT AGAIN. 3
IF YOUR POSITION WAS THAT 3
THIS WAS EFFECTIVE AND THIS WAS 3
THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO 3
PROTECT AMERICANS AND GET 3
INFORMATION, WHAT DO YOU DO 3
DIFFERENTLY THE NEXT TIME? 3
NOT GONNA DO IT. 3
WHAT DO YOU DO 1234 3
YOU SAY WE'RE GOING TO SEND 3
THEM INTO AN AMERICAN JUDICIAL 3
SYSTEM AND SEE -- SIMPLE 3
REASON. 3
IF YOU'RE RUNNING A LARGE 3
ORGANIZATION, WHETHER IT'S A 3
NEWS ORGANIZATION OR THE 3
C.I.A., YOU GOTTA PROTECT YOUR 3
PEOPLE. 3
WHEN I WORKED IN THE BUSINESS 3
FROM 1985 TO 2010, PROTECTING 3
YOUR PEOPLE WOULD HAVE SAID 3
WE'RE GOING TO DO WHATEVER IT 3
TAKES ACCORDING TO WHAT THE 3
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE SAYS IS 3
THE LAW AND WHAT THE PRESIDENT 3
AND THE CONGRESS SAYS IS THE 3
POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES. 3
SINCE THEN AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE 3
BEEN PRETTY CLEAR, WE DON'T 3
LIKE THIS. 3
IF YOU'RE LEADING AN 3
ORGANIZATION, YOU CANNOT PUT 3
YOUR PEOPLE IN A POSITION AGAIN 3
TO HAVE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAY 3
WE'RE OKAY WITH THAT IN 2019, 3
WE'RE NOT OKAY IN 2023. 3
BUT THIS IS STILL PART OF 3
OUR LEGACY IN THE INTELLIGENCE 3
COMMUNITY, THE AMERICANS 3
TORTURE PEOPLE. 3
THESE ARE THE PICTURES OF 3
PEOPLE -- 3
WE DIDN'T TORTURE THEM. 3
WE SUBJECTED THEM TO AGGRESSIVE 3
INTERROGATION. 3
TORTURE MEANS LONG-TERM 3
PHYSICAL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL 3
DAMAGE. 3
WE DON'T DO THAT. 3
YOU DON'T THINK STRIPPING 3
PEOPLE NAKED, HAVING THEM IN 3
SOLITARY CONFINEMENT AND 3
COUGHING FOR 60 HOURS AT A 3
TIME, THAT DOESN'T CAUSE LONG-3
TERM DAMAGE? 3
I DON'T THINK SO. 3
REALLY? 3
I DON'T THINK SO, NO. 3
I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT 3
AMERICANS SHOULD QUESTION 3
WHETHER WE SHOULD DO, AND I 3
THINK THAT IS PERFECTLY 3
APPROPRIATE. 3
WHAT ABOUT SUSPENDED HABEAS 3
CORPUS? 3
WHAT ABOUT NOT GIVING THESE 3
PEOPLE -- NOT CHARGING THEM, IN 3
SOME CASES HOLDING THEM FIVE 3
YEARS, FOUR YEARS AT A TIME, 3
TAKING THEM TO VARIOUS 3
DIFFERENT COUNTRIES TO GET AWAY 3
WITH THINGS THAT WOULDN'T 3
NECESSARILY GO OVER HERE? 3
LOOK, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE 3
EVERYDAY MAKE CHOICES IN THEIR 3
EVERYDAY WORLD THAT THEY DON'T 3
APPLY TO TERRORISM. 3
AND AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, I 3
DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS. 3
WHY DO WE SUBJECT THEM TO 3
DIFFERENT STANDARDS THAN WE 3
WOULD SUBJECT A CHILD, A 3
PEDOPHILE. 3
PEDOPHILES IN MY WORLD ARE 3
WORSE THAN THE PEOPLE I CHASED, 3
WORSE. 3
YOU ABUSE A 3-YEAR-OLD AND YOU 3
GET OUT BECAUSE WE CAN'T PROVE 3
IT, AND THAT'S BECAUSE THE 3
AMERICAN SYSTEM SAYS UNLESS WE 3
CAN PROVE IT, YOU STAY IN JAIL 3
OR YOU GET -- UNLESS WE CAN 3
PROVE IT, YOU GO. 3
I THINK WE OUGHT TO STAND UP 3
AND SAY WE HAVE FOR GENERATIONS 3
SAID A HUMAN BEING GETS PROVEN 3
GUILTY, AND UNLESS THEY'RE 3
PROVEN GUILTY THEY GET TO GO 3
FREE, AND THAT APPLIES AS WELL 3
TO TERRORISTS. 3
I THINK WE OUT TO DO THAT AND 3
I'M GOOD WITH THAT. 3
HOW ABOUT GUANTANAMO BAY, 15 3
OF THE CURRENT DETAINEES IN 3
GUANTANAMO BAY WERE PEOPLE WHO 3
WERE HELD IN BLACK SITES. 3
GUANTANAMO BAY IS STILL OPEN. 3
WHAT DO WE DO? 3
THIS I WOULD PUT TO THE 3
CONGRESS, NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO 3
PUNT. 3
I HAVEN'T PUNTED WITH YOU FOR 3
20 MINUTES, I'M NOT GOING TO 3
PUNT, BUT BECAUSE I THINK THE 3
CONGRESS REPRESENTS THE WILL OF 3
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. 3
WHEN THE CONGRESS TOLD ME IN 3
2003 WHAT YOU'RE DOING TO AL-3
QAIDA PRISONERS IS APPROPRIATE, 3
MY VIEW WAS THEY REPRESENT THE 3
WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. 3
THERE'S A CATEGORY OF PRISONERS 3
YOU WOULD SAY IF WE HAVE 3
EVIDENCE THAT CAN BE PRESENTED 3
IN A MILITARY COURT OF LAW, WE 3
TRY THEM. 3
SO LET'S SAY THERE'S 10 OR 15 3
INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE THE ARC 3
ARCHITECTS OF 9/11, THE MOST 3
SENIOR MEMBERS OF AL-QAIDA, WE 3
DON'T HAVE EVIDENCE AGAINST 3
THEM. 3
DOES THE CONGRESS WANT TO SAY 3
FOR A SMALL CATEGORY OF PEOPLE, 3
10 OR 15, THE ARCHITECTS OF 3
9/11, IF WE CAN'T PROVE WHAT 3
THEY DID IN A COURT OF LAW, WE 3
WANT TO KEEP THEM FOREVER? 3
THAT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE. 3
I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE ANSWER 3
IS. 3
BUT I THINK THAT ANSWER DOES 3
NOT LIE WITH THE FBI, THE 3
C.I.A., THE WHITE HOUSE. 3
THAT LIES WITH THE 3
REPRESENTATIVES OF THE AMERICAN 3
PEOPLE. 3
DO YOU WANT TO KEEP PEOPLE 3
REGARDLESS OF THE FACT THAT YOU 3
CAN'T PRESENT A CASE? 3
IF YOU HAD TO CHOOSE ONE, 3
WHAT WOULD BE THE MOST VALUABLE 3
OR THE BIGGEST LESSON YOU TOOK 3
FROM THIS PERIOD OF YOUR LIFE, 3
ESPECIALLY NOW THAT YOU'VE HAD 3
A CHANCE TO TALK TO YOUR 3
COLLEAGUES AND REFLECT ON IT 3
AND, YOU KNOW, THE BENEFIT OF 3
20/20 HINDSIGHT IN A CHANGED 3
WORLD, WHAT WAS THE BIGGEST 3
LESSON FOR YOU? 3
PRETTY BASIC, AND THAT IS 3
THE POWER OF AMERICA RESTS IN 3
THE PEOPLE THAT THE AMERICANS 3
ELECT. 3
THEY ELECT PEOPLE TO THE WHITE 3
HOUSE WHO CAN CHOOSE 3
INDIVIDUALS TO SERVE AT THE 3
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WHO 3
DETERMINE WHAT THE LAW IS. 3
THEY ELECT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, 3
THEY ELECT SENATORS. 3
THE POWER OF THE BALLOT IS 3
SIGNIFICANT. 3
WHEN YOU'RE IN A TIME OF 3
PRESSURE, WHAT THE LESSON I 3
LEARNED WAS MAKE SURE YOU ELECT 3
PEOPLE WHO STAY COOL. 3
THE HOTTER IT IS, THE COOLER 3
YOU GET. 3
AND IF YOU ELECT PEOPLE WHO GET 3
HOT UNDER THE HEAT, YOU'RE BAD, 3
THAT'S A MISTAKE. 3
PHILIP MUDD, THANKS SO MUCH 3
FOR JOINING ME TODAY. 3
THE BOOK IS CALLED "BLACK SITE, 3
THE C.I.A. 3
IN THE POST-9/11 WORLD." 3
APPRECIATE YOU BEING HERE. 3
THANKS A LOT. 3
THESE ARE SKETCHES DRAWN BY 3
THE ACCUSED TERRORIST DEPICTING 3
HIS FOUR YEARS IN SECRET 3
PRISON. 3
THEY'RE PART OF A REPORT PUT 3
OUT BY HIS LAWYER, PROFESSOR 3