New reporting today that Wagner leader
Yevgeny Prigozhin had some big plans,
even bigger plans,
before calling off his brief revolt.
Western officials
telling The Wall Street
Journal that the Wagner leader plan
to capture
two of Putin's top ranking
military leaders,
the defense minister
and the chief of Russia's general staff
Officials also say
that Prigozhin sped up his plans
after the Kremlin was tipped off.
We have CNN's Nic Robertson
with us now on this story.
A fascinating development here.
What can you tell us, Nic?
Yes, Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister,
Valery Grass,
some of the army chief of staff.
These were
the two men who Prigozhin
had been ranting
against publicly for months
in advance of this situation.
So there's context
and history to the allegation
or the supposition
of the intelligence services
that he was going to try to capture them.
When Prigozhin went to Rostov
on Don, that
big Russian military headquarters
with all his troops
He said that that evening at 9 p.m.
that evening,
that Sergei
Shoigu, the defense minister, had fled
Rostov on Don.
We'll learning other
details from other Russian
security chiefs.
The Zoloft of the head of the
National Guard
said that
they had got wind of showy goose
precautions plans to
to challenge
the authorities, challenge the state.
They got wind of those plans
that that was supposed to happen
on the 22nd to the 25th of June
and they had this from leaks.
Now Western intelligence say
that they had picked up
that Prigozhin
was about to do something
by an increase of level of communications
between internally and Russia's state
security services.
So this picture that's being painted
that Prigozhin was not just putting
it was not just going to try to challenge
the authority
he was actually going to capture
and kidnap, it appears.
We don't know
to do what with
with the defense minister
and the army chief of staff.
It's quite a staggeringly brazen plot.
But apparently people in his camp
leaked to the Russian government
what was happening.
How is the Russian military situation
destabilized at this point
with this New York Times reporting
that Sergei Sorokin had advance knowledge
of last weekend's mutiny?
Assuming that is true,
it's hard to know
and whether or not it's true,
because, of course,
this is a time
when Western intelligence
agencies would love to loot low
put seeds of doubt in the minds of
of the Russian government,
and particularly in the minds of people
in President Putin's mind right now.
So so, Rob, can you
Prigozhin, they worked together in Syria,
both Prigozhin for his mercenary group,
Sorokin as a general.
So Ralph killed last
year, had been put in charge
of the Russian forces in Ukraine.
And it actually stood up
to President Putin.
It's understood
that he was the one that said
you have to pull out of the Harrison
region and Prigozhin liked Sorokin.
He said he was the only
Russian general worth a star.
Now, it's not clear
if that like mutual like it's not clear
if that was a mutual situation that
Sorokin actually like Prigozhin.
But there's perhaps evidence
that at least
Prigozhin thought
perhaps he could trust Sorokin.
We really don't know.
But it appears when you sort of analyze
what happened on the ground,
whether or not
had put some faith in Sorokin
or other generals,
his ability
to move into Rostov on Don,
take control
of the military headquarters,
his ability
to move
troops further north
raises that very pertinent question.
How many other military generals
had wind of
this were actually on Prigozhin side
but in the case of Sorokin,
he very quickly,
when this began to unfold, came out
in a video
telling Prigozhin to back down,
and it was noticeable
that he actually had
a Kalashnikov on his lap
when he made that statement, which is
which is sort of bizarre.
Bizarre in itself.
Yeah. Really, really interesting.
Sort of Game of Thrones
playing out as we see there
in the Russian military.
Nick, thank you for the report for us.
Let's expand the conversation
now with retired
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling.
He's a former commanding general
for the US Army, Europe
and the Seventh Army general.
Great to share an afternoon with you.
Thanks for being with us.
First on President
Biden describing Vladimir Putin
as being weakened by this attempted coup.
What is the biggest threat
right now to his grip on power in Russia?
You know, there's there's a lot
more of this.
I'll just use Nick's words.
It best describes it bizarre.
You know, the last couple of years,
I was in the service in Europe.
There were daily intelligence reports
coming across about Russia.
And it was always speculation Russian
leaning toward
confirmation bias,
internal military rumors
about what was going on
in the Russian military
from different channels.
Kremlin power plays.
And you mix that all
with the deception operations.
The so-called Moscow rock
that the Russians do all the time
would always be confusing
But that is now on steroids
because of the actions
over the past weekend.
You have the personalities
of Shoigu Putin.
Prigozhin served
weekend is, as Nick
just mentioned, gruesome off
the chief
of of the equivalent
of the chairman of the Joint Staff.
You also have another guy
that hasn't been mentioned
all that much
a guy named Zala Toff,
who is
the Russian National Guard
commander, who's a Kremlin insider,
all throwing out these rumors
of how bad things are.
But I got to tell you,
Boris,
this is more of an understanding that
Russian military and their government
is a proverbial nesting
doll of dysfunction,
but it is gone on steroids right now
in terms of all the craziness
that's happening.
And yes, Putin is weakened by all that.
You can tell by the
the effects
he's had over the last couple of days
and what he's been doing to try
and thwart
the rumors
that are swirling around his government
and his military
Yeah, that kind of speculation
rampant, the sort of Kremlinology
of who's doing what.
There's always intrigue
around Putin and his generals.
But on that note,
you mentioned the confusion.
How does that play out
on the battlefield in Ukraine?
Well, there's
already reports now
coming from inside of Russia.
And these are rumors, again,
not been verified.
But Sir Boykin has been put in jail.
So if the commander on the front
is now in jail, not may not be true,
then that would cause
more dysfunction,
because that
boils down to the troop level.
What's going on in the foxhole
and what we're seeing, too,
combined with the potential
for Ukraine's forces
generating increasing momentum
over the last several weeks
and admitting
they haven't even started
the major counteroffensive yet,
they're still conducting
shaping operation
that would probably give
the Russian soldiers on the front line
a little bit more pause and cause
an even decreased morale on the front.
And Russian morale has not been very good
since the beginning
16 months ago of this operation,
this invasion.
So it can only get worse.
It can't get better.
We have
looked into or
we are,
I should say, looking into reports
of the arrests that you mentioned.
CNN is working to confirm them.
So obviously, we will bring that news
as it comes out.
But should we anticipate
a purge by Putin
of some of his top officials,
especially if he considers them threats
that that could be
a course of action, Boris.
But truthfully, you know,
I think there is a problem with that
because Russia is currently
in a defensive state.
They have their defensive operations
ongoing against an increase,
like I said, an increasing
Ukrainian momentum on the front.
So now is not the time you want to purge.
You want to do a purge during peacetime
when you can quickly replace
commanders in the field.
Now, we may see more replacements
of Russian generals
Russian colonels on the front.
But truthfully, Boris,
we've been seeing that
since the beginning.
The number of replacements
due to ineffectiveness, inefficiencies
and death
and casualties
on the front line of senior leaders
has just been remarkable
in this campaign.
It's a lot has occurred
on the Russian side.
We may see a purge.
I wouldn't bet on that,
but you could certainly see
a lot of high ranking officials replaced.
I'm watching very closely
grab some up and show you
and what happens to them.
Everyone seems to be focused on
and what I'd like to see is
what's happening inside of the Kremlin.
And that could also affect this guys.
All the top
the National Guard commander,
because he is the true Kremlin insider.
He he's a general
that's been inside
that the Kremlin,
much like a lot of our military
or inside the Pentagon
for a very long
time, doesn't have the field savvy,
but he's very close to Putin,
a nesting doll of dysfunction.
Quite an assessment
from General Mark Hertling.
Thanks so much for being with us today.