OFFICE FOR SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
NEW YORK. DURING THE PRESS CONFERENCE,
CHIEF LEGAL CORRESPONDENT ARI
MELBER, HOST OF "THE BEAT."
TOM, START WITH YOU, WHAT
CHARGES ARE LAID?
>> Reporter: FOUR PRIMARY
CHARGES, TWO COUNTS OF
CONSPIRACY AND ALSO HAS TO DO
WITH FALSIFYING RECORDS.
WHEN YOU MAKE A POLITICAL
CONTRIBUTION, IF YOU MAKE IT
WITH RESPECT TO A PRO-TRUMP
SUPER PAC, IF YOU SAY IT IS FROM
A SPECIFIC COMPANY, ENERGY
COMPANY THAT THESE TWO PEOPLE
STARTED, IT CAN’T COME FROM A
LOAN OR OTHER MONETARY MEANS
WHICH IS WHAT THEY’RE CHARGED
WITH HERE.
WITH HERE. BASICALLY WHAT THE U.S. ATTORNEY
OFFICE LAID OUT THROUGH THE
COURSE OF THE GRAND JURY
INDICTMENT TODAY IS A SCHEME TO
TAKE MONEY FROM A FOREIGN
NATIONAL THEY DON’T IDENTIFY AND
INJECT IT AT VARIOUS POINTS INTO
THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.
IN PARTICULAR, THERE WAS AN
EFFORT HERE, THEY ONLY IDENTIFY
THE PERSON AS CONGRESSMAN ONE,
BUT THE REPORTER MYSELF AND MY
COLLEAGUE HAVE BEEN TOLD THIS
CONGRESSMAN IS PETE SESSIONS WHO
WAS IN CONGRESS RECENTLY NOT
ELECTED FROM DALLAS, TEXAS AREA.
WANTED TO PROVIDE MONEY TO HIM.
THEY MAXED OUT CONTRIBUTIONS TO
HIM IN AN EFFORT TO SEE IF HE
COULD LOBBY FOR REMOVAL OF THE
U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE,
SOMETHING IN THE NEWS A LOT.
YOU HAVE BEEN SPEAKING A LOT
ABOUT AS RELATES TO THE
WHISTLE-BLOWER COMPLAINT IN MORE
RECENT CONVERSATIONS INVOLVING
GIULIANI’S INVOLVEMENT IN
UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. THAT’S KIND OF THE BROAD
OVERVIEW OF WHAT THEY’RE UP TO.
OF COURSE, THIS IS SOMETHING
THAT THE FBI AND DEPARTMENT OF
JUSTICE HAS BEEN SPEAKING OUT
ABOUT A LOT IN THE LAST SEVERAL
MONTHS.
MONTHS. WE TALKED ABOUT IT WITH RUSSIAN
INTERFERENCE, NOW TALKING ABOUT
IT WITH OTHER COUNTRIES
INTERFERING, AND THE ASSISTANT
DIRECTOR OF THE FBI BILL SWEENEY
TALKED ABOUT THAT TODAY AS FAR
AS THEIR FOCUS AND THEIR
INTENTION TO GO AFTER PEOPLE,
AND WE CAN TAKE A LISTEN WHO
WERE INVOLVED WITH THESE TYPE OF
DONATIONS.
DONATIONS. >> THESE FINANCE LAWS EXIST FOR
A REASON.
A REASON. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE EXPECT AND
DESERVE AN
DESERVE AN DESERVE AN ELECTION PROCESS NOT
INFLUENCED BY FOREIGN INTEREST
AND THE PUBLIC HAS THE RIGHT TO
KNOW THE TRUE SOURCE OF CAMPAIGN
CONTRIBUTIONS.
CONTRIBUTIONS. LAWS MAKE UP THE FABRIC OF WHO
WE ARE AS A NATION.
WE GATHER EVIDENCE, COLLECT
FACTS, WILL ACT ON THEM WHEN
APPROPRIATE.
APPROPRIATE. AS JEFF MENTIONED, OUR
INVESTIGATION WILL CONTINUE.
>> Reporter: I THINK THAT LAST
POINT THERE, ALI, THAT THE
INVESTIGATION IS CONTINUING IS
AN IMPORTANT ONE.
WE KNOW THAT THESE INDIVIDUALS
THAT WERE CHARGED TODAY MADE
OTHER CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS
THAT WERE NOT REFERENCED HERE,
INCLUDING CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS
TO THE HOUSE MINORITY LEADER,
KEVIN McCARTHY.
KEVIN McCARTHY. THERE’S NO INDICATION THAT
THERE’S ANY WRONGDOING WITH
RESPECT TO DONATIONS, NO
INDICATION THAT CONGRESSMAN
McCARTHY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH
THIS OR IS INVOLVED IN ANY SORT
OF INVESTIGATION.
OF INVESTIGATION. >> KEN, TOM LAID OUT THE FACTS
QUITE WELL.
QUITE WELL. TRY AND DRAW A PICTURE FOR OUR
VIEWERS HERE ABOUT WHAT THE
CONNECTION IS BETWEEN THESE MEN
ARRESTED.
ARRESTED. RUDY GIULIANI AND HIS EFFORTS ON
BEHALF OF DONALD TRUMP AND
DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.
>> Reporter: SO WHAT WE HAVE,
ALI, AT A MEN, PEOPLE ACTING ON
TRUMP’S BEHALF ACCUSED OF
CORRUPTION.
CORRUPTION. IT WAS JUST OVER A YEAR AGO,
PAUL MANAFORT, HIS CAMPAIGN
MANAGER, WAS CONVICTED OF FRAUD
IN THE COURTHOUSE BEHIND ME.
ONE OF HIS LAWYERS IS
REPRESENTING THE TWO MEN IN THE
APPEARANCE TODAY.
APPEARANCE TODAY. IT SEEMS TO GO MUCH FURTHER
BEYOND THAT, ALI.
THESE TWO MEN WERE REPRESENTED
BY RUDY GIULIANI.
HE HAS SAID THAT PUBLICLY, IN
THEIR ENDEAVORS IN UKRAINE, SEEM
TO BE WEARING TWO HATS WITH
REGARD TO UKRAINE.
THEY MADE THESE CONTRIBUTIONS,
CULTIVATED POLITICAL INFLUENCE,
WERE INTRODUCING RUDY GIULIANI
TO UKRAINIANS WHO RUDY WAS
LOBBYING TO INVESTIGATE THE
BIDENS, PURSUE OTHER
INVESTIGATIONS THAT DONALD TRUMP
WANTED.
WANTED. AT THE SAME TIME, THEY WERE
PURSUING PRIVATE BUSINESS DEALS,
IN PARTICULAR A NATURAL GAS DEAL
AND WERE TRYING TO GET RID OF
THE U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE
WHO WAS APPARENTLY STANDING IN
THEIR WAY FROM A BUSINESS
PERSPECTIVE, TELLING EVERYONE IN
UKRAINE THEY HAD THE POWER TO DO
THAT.
THAT. SHE THEN WAS RECALLED TO
WASHINGTON.
WASHINGTON. THEY MADE A PROPOSAL TO REPLACE
THE CEO OF THE UKRAINIAN GAS
COMPANY.
COMPANY. WHAT CONGRESS WANTS TO KNOW FROM
THESE PEOPLE IS OBVIOUSLY WHAT
DID THEY TALK TO GIULIANI ABOUT
IN TEFRMSRMS OF PRESSURING UKRAI
OFFICIALS.
OFFICIALS. WHAT WERE THE PRIVATE BUSINESS
DEALINGS, CONNECTION WITH RUDY
GIULIANI, AND WHAT ROLE DID THAT
PLAY IN EFFORTS TO PRESSURE
UKRAINE.
UKRAINE. LASTLY, THERE’S A QUESTION OF
WHO PAID FOR ALL THIS.
RUDY GIULIANI HAS NOT REALLY
ANSWERED WHO WAS PAYING FOR HIS
TRAVELS TO UKRAINE, MEETINGS IN
EUROPE WITH UKRAINIAN OFFICIALS.
THESE MEN WERE PAYING RUDY AS A
LAWYER, WE DON’T KNOW THE
CIRCUMSTANCES OF THAT, THAT’S
WHAT FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS AND
CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS WILL
BE FINDING OUT.
>> ARI MELBER, THIS IS
INTERESTING GRIT FOR THOSE OF US
THAT ARE JOURNALISTS THAT LIKE
TO LOOK INTO THESE DETAILS,
CURIOSITY ABOUT THE THINGS KEN
IS TALKING ABOUT, WHO IS PAYING
FOR THIS AND POSSIBLY SHADY
DEALINGS.
DEALINGS. FOR MOST PEOPLE, THIS IS ONLY
RELEVANT IN A LARGER CONTEXT,
THE CONTEXT IN WHICH WE ARE
LOOKING AT DONALD TRUMP.
>> FAIR.
>> FAIR. LOOK, YOU EVER WONDER WHAT
CRIMINAL FOREIGN POLICY LOOKS
LIKE, HERE IT IS.
THIS IS THE PROSECUTORS IN NEW
YORK WHO ARE APPOINTED BY THE
TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYING YOU
HAVE PEOPLE OUT HERE ALLEGEDLY
COMMITTING CRIMES, FUNNELING
MONEY TO A TRUMP SUPER PAC.
HEADLINE NUMBER ONE.
BOOM.
BOOM. THEN YOU HAVE INDIVIDUALS
CURRENTLY IN DEMAND AS
IMPEACHMENT WITNESSES IN THE
UKRAINE SCANDAL FOR DONALD
TRUMP.
TRUMP. THEY GOT ARRESTED.
BOOM, HEADLINE NUMBER TWO.
AND THREE, WHAT DO THEY KNOW
ABOUT RUDY GIULIANI AND DEALINGS
WITH THE WHITE HOUSE, UNDER
SIGNIFICANT PRESSURE AS WE HAVE
SEEN OTHER PEOPLE LIKE
MR. MANAFORT, SAID HE WOULD
NEVER FLIP, FLIPPED.
MR. GATES, FLIPPED.
MR. COHEN IN JAIL NOW, FLIPPED.
THESE TWO ASOES ATS OF RUDY
GIULIANI FLIP.
GIULIANI FLIP. THERE’S A LOT HERE THAT
TERRIFIES PEOPLE AT THE WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. >> IS THERE ENOUGH HERE TO ALLOW
YOU, AND YOU ARE A LAWYER, TO BE
ABLE TO SAY I KNOW WHAT THIS
NARRATIVE COULD LOOK LIKE, IN
OTHER WORDS, DO WE KNOW, THEY
HAD THEIR HANDS IN A LOT OF
STUFF, THEY’RE INVOLVED WITH
RUDY GIULIANI, AND WE KNOW RUDY
GIULIANI IS INVOLVED IN A LOT OF
STUFF, SOME OF THAT CONNECTS TO
DONALD TRUMP.
DONALD TRUMP. CAN YOU GET FROM A TO F?
>> GREAT QUESTION, ALI VELSHI
KNOWN FOR GREAT QUESTIONS.
THERE ARE TWO THEORIES.
HERE’S ONE GOOD FOR THE WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. A THEORY MANY ARE ACCUSED OF
CRIMES, INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN
GUILTY, IF CONVICTED DID BAD
THINGS, ASSOCIATED WITH PEOPLE,
THAT’S AS FAR AS IT WENT, BAD
APPLES DEFENSE AND THAT’S IT.
THE OTHER THEORY IS THAT THE
PEOPLE ON THE SCREEN YOU SEE NOW
AND OTHER INDIVIDUALS CLOSE TO
TRUMP AND RUDY GIULIANI DID KNOW
ABOUT THE EXTENT OF THIS, THAT
THERE WAS A LARGER CRIMINAL PLOT
TO TAKE OVER U.S. FOREIGN
POLICY, NOT FOR THE BENEFIT OF
THE UNITED STATES, NOT FOR
IDEOLOGICAL REASONS, RATHER FOR
CRIMINAL REASONS, FOR ABUSE OF
POWER REASONS, GET RID OF ANYONE
THAT WON’T PLAY BALL IN ABUSE OF
POWER TO GET FOREIGN MEDDLING
INTO THE U.S. ELECTION, TRY TO
DO IN 2020 WHAT BOB MUELLER
FOUND DIDN’T HAPPEN TO A
CRIMINAL DEGREE IN 2016.
I AM TALKING ABOUT A THEORY OF
THE CASE WHERE OTHER PIECES FALL
INTO PLAY AND THERE’S A PROVABLE
2020 ELECTION CONSPIRACY.
THAT HAS TO MAKE RUDY GIULIANI
NERVOUS.
NERVOUS. IT WOULD GO WITHOUT MENTION TO
ADD, KIND OF OBVIOUS, BUT RUDY
GIULIANI USED TO HAVE THE JOB AS
TOP PROSECUTOR.
TOP PROSECUTOR. TODAY THEY INDICTED TWO OF HIS
CLOSEST ASSOCIATES, WANTED ALSO
FOR IMPEACHMENT TESTIMONY.
HE KNOWS HOW THIS WORKS.
THE FLIPPING I MENTIONED, THAT
HAPPENED IN HIS OFFICE.
HE KNOWS THE SCREWS ARE GOING TO
COME DOWN ON THESE PEOPLE TO
TELL US EVERYTHING YOU KNOW.
>> THIS IS AT THE MOMENT A
CAMPAIGN FINANCE INDICTMENT.
>> YEP.
>> YEP. >> INTERESTING THAT THESE TWO
GUYS, BY THE WAY, IF YOU EVER
TRY TO GET AWAY FROM THE LAW,
BUY A RETURN TICKET, MAKES IT
LESS SUSPICIOUS.
LESS SUSPICIOUS. THEY WERE ON A ONE WAY TICKET
OUT OF THE COUNTRY, SOME
INFERENCE THERE THAT MAYBE
THERE’S MORE TO THIS.
>> ALI, SOME PREFER SPONTANEOUS
TRAVEL.
TRAVEL. >> DO WE THINK THIS IS WHAT IT
LOOKS LIKE?
LOOKS LIKE? THERE SEEMS TO BE EMPHASIS, TOM
WINTER MADE THE POINT THAT THE
PROSECUTORS TODAY SAID THIS IS A
CONTINUING INVESTIGATION.
CONTINUING INVESTIGATION. >> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. I THINK THAT REMAINS OPEN.
IN FAIRNESS TO EVERYBODY, BASED
ON THE PUBLIC INFORMATION, THESE
WERE NOT FUGITIVES FROM THE LAW,
NOT FLEEING FROM A NEW
INDICTMENT, NOT AN OJ BRONCO.
>> JUST LEAVING THE COUNTRY.
>> BUT THEY WERE LEAVING THE
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. AND THEY WERE RIGHT IN THAT GRAY
ZONE BETWEEN NOT FUGITIVES IN
FAIRNESS TO THEM BUT NOT LEAVING
UNDER NORMAL AND NEUTRAL
CIRCUMSTANCES.
CIRCUMSTANCES. >> INCLUDING THE FACT THEY WERE
SUBPOENAED BY THE HOUSE.
>> FACING REQUESTS FROM THE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. THEY KNEW THEY WERE IN DEMAND.
THEY KNEW THEY WERE TIED TO RUDY
GIULIANI.
GIULIANI. IN THAT FORUM, THEY THEN LEAVE.
LEGALLY, THAT’S NOT A CRIMINAL
ACT, NOT A FUGITIVE FROM
JUSTICE, BUT DOES LOOK BAD.
IN FAIRNESS, IF THAT’S AS BAD AS
IT GETS, IT MAY HAVE STOPPED
WITH THESE INDIVIDUALS.
YOU HAVE MONEY GOING TO THE
TRUMP SUPER PAC, REMOVAL OF THE
AMBASSADOR, THE HOUSE OPENLY
LOOKING AT THIS AS AN
EXISTENTIAL QUESTION OF THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. THIS ADDS TO THE QUANTUM OF
EVIDENCE.
EVIDENCE. >> OFTEN A RETURN TICKET IS LESS
THAN A ONE WAY TICKET.
>> ARE YOU BRINGING FINANCE LAW