MY FIRST GUEST IS THE FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR
OF THE F.B.I. WHO WAS FIRED AFTER LAUNCHING
INVESTIGATIONS INTO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TIES TO RUSSIA.
HIS NEW BOOK IS "THE THREAT."
PLEASE WELCOME, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE F.B.I. ANDREW
McCABE!
♪ ♪ ♪
HAVE A SEAT.
WELCOME TO THE SHOW.
>> THANK YOU.
>> Stephen: I-- I IMAGINE YOU NEVER THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD BE
ON A LATE-NIGHT TALK SHOW.
>> NEVER IN MY WILDEST DREAMS, YEAH, OR NIGHTMARES.
>> Stephen: BECAUSE YOU MOSTLY HAVE WORKED ON THINGS YOU REALLY
CAN'T DISCUSS WITH THE REST OF US.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
LIKE EVERYONE WHO WORKS FOR THE F.B.I., YOU LIVE A VERY PRIVATE
LIFE.
THE WORK THAT WE DO IS OFTENTIMES-- IT'S ALWAYS
SENSITIVE.
IT'S OFTEN CLASSIFIED.
IT'S THINGS WE DON'T TALK ABOUT.
>> Stephen: LEGALLY, DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK AND DRESS LIKE AN
EXTRA FROM "DRAGNET" TO BE IN THE F.B.I.
>> OF COURSE,.
>> Stephen: IT'S A GOOD LOOK.
I TRY TO ROCK IT WHEN I CAN.
>> GOT IT.
>> Stephen: NOW, YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED "THE THREAT," AS I
SAID BEFORE "HOW THE F.B.I.
PROTECTS AMERICA IN THE AGE OF TERROR AND TRUMP."
( APPLAUSE )
TRUMP.
HE IS SINGLEHANDEDLY SAVING THE PUBLISHING INDUSTRY IN AMERICA
BECAUSE EVERYONE WHO EVER SPENT FIVE MINUTES IN A ROOM WITH HIM
IS JUST STAMPEDING A PUBLISHER TO SAY, "YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT
THIS GUY SAID!" >> YOU KNOW, IT'S A SERIES OF
AMAZING INCIDENTS WHEN YOU HAVE TO INTERACT WITH THE PRESIDENT.
SO IT'S GREAT FODDER FOR STORY S.
>> Stephen: AT ALL-- AT ALL TIMES, BUT THIS PRESIDENT IN
PARTICULAR.
YOU-- AS I SAID, YOU WERE ACTING DIRECTOR AFTER COMEY WAS FIRED.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> Stephen: AND OPENED TWO INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE
PRESIDENT, IF I'M CORRECT.
>> IT'S ACTUALLY ONE INVESTIGATION WITH A DUAL
PURPOSE.
SO THERE'S A CRIMINAL CONCERN.
WE THOUGHT THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A FEDERAL CRIME COMMITTED
-- THAT BEING OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE.
>> Stephen: WHEN HE FIRED COMEY.
>> THAT'S CORRECT.
THAT'S CORRECT.
AND WE ALSO FELT LIKE THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY THAT A THREAT TO
NATIONAL SECURITY MIGHT EXISTED.
>> Stephen: BECAUSE HE MIGHT BE COLLUDING OR CONSPIRING WITH
THE RUSSIANS, OR THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME COMPROMMATE ON HIM.
>> IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE GENERAL THAN THAT.
IF YOU THINK THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES MAY HAVE
FIRED THE DIRECTOR OF THE F.B.I.
FOR THE PURPOSE OF INTERFERING WITH OR STOPPING OUR
INVESTIGATION INTO RUSSIAN MALIGN INFLUENCE IN THE
CAMPAIGN, THE QUESTION YOU HAVE TO ASK YOURSELF IS, "WHY?
WHY WOULD ANY PRESIDENT DO THAT?"
AND THAT GIVES RISE TO THE COUNTER-INTELLIGENCE CONCERN?
WHY WOULD THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES BE TRYING TO
OBSTRUCT AN INVESTIGATION INTO RUSSIA'S ACTIVITY?
AND WHAT-- WHAT MAKES YOU, THAT THE PRESIDENT FIRED COMEY
BECAUSE OF THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION, OTHER THAN THE
FACT THAT HE SAID THAT OUT LOUD?
( LAUGHTER ) ( APPLAUSE )
( CHEERS )
YEAH.
>> Stephen: IS THERE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT?
IS THERE OTHER THAN, LIKE, WHAT HE SAID TO LESTER HOLT.
>> THAT WAS A GOOD THING.
AND IT WAS SOMETHING WE WERE AWARE OF.
>> Stephen: IT'S CALLED A LEAD IN THE BUSINESS.
>> IT WAS AN INVESTIGATIVE LEAD.
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT CONCERNED US.
AS WE INVESTIGATED THE POSSIBILITY OF RUSSIAN COLLUSION
WITH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN THROUGH THE FALL.
SO THAT'S THE INVESTIGATION THAT JIM COMEY HAD MADE PUBLIC.
>> Stephen: WHAT IS IT LIKE TO BE IN A ROOM WHERE PEOPLE ARE
SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING AND EVENTUALLY DECIDE TO, WHAT'S IT
LIKE TO BE IN THAT ROOM WHEN YOU'RE HAVING TO SERIOUSLY
CONSIDER WHETHER TO INVESTIGATE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES?
>> YEAH, IT'S UNBELIEVABLE.
I MEAN, LOOK, WE DON'T TRAIN AT QUANTICO FOR, "HERE'S WHAT TO DO
WHEN YOU THINK YOU NEED TO INVESTIGATE THE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES."
IT'S JUST NOT A TOPIC THAT WE TALK ABOUT.
( LAUGHTER )
SAY, "LOOK, THESE ARE THE AUTHORITIES WE HAVE.
AND THIS IS HOW WE LAWFULLY EXECUTE THEM."
WHEN WE HAVE INFORMATION OR FACTS THAT INDICATE A CRIME MAY
HAVE BEEN COMMITTED OR THAT A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY MAY
EXIST, THEN WE ARE OBLIGATED AS THE F.B.I. TO INVESTIGATE THAT
MATTER, WHETHER IT'S THE PRESIDENT OR ANYBODY ELSE.
WE DON'T OPEN INVESTIGATIONS BECAUSE WE LIKE SOMEONE OR DON'T
LIKE THEM OR BECAUSE THEY'RE A REPUBLICAN OR A DEMOCRAT.
WE OPEN INVESTIGATIONS WHEN WE HAVE THE INFORMATION THAT WOULD
PREDICATE AN INVESTIGATION.
WE HAD THAT IN THIS INSTANCE, UNDENIABLY.
>> Stephen: ALL RIGHT, YOU DESCRIBE THE PERIOD OF TIME
AFTER DIRECTOR COMEY WAS FIRED AS-- AS A PERIOD OF CHAOS AND
FRENZY AT THE F.B.I.
HEADQUARTERS.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> Stephen: WHAT IS THE F.B.I.
LIKE WHEN IT'S IN A CHAOTIC FRENZY?
THAT'S A DISCONCERTING DESCRIPTION.
>> OUR DARK TIES ARE SLIGHTLY ASKEW ON OUR WHITE SHIRTS.
THAT'S THE FIRST TIME.
>> Stephen: JUST, THAT OKAY?
( LAUGHTER ) ( APPLAUSE ).
>> YOU KNOW-- KNOW -- >> Stephen: YOU'RE NOT DRAMA
QUEENS.
>> NO, NO.
THERE'S NOT A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE RUNNING THROUGH THE HALLS
WITH THEIR HAIR ON FIRE.
IT WAS A VERY SERIOUS TIME.
I HAD-- YOU KNOW, I FELT THAT MY TIME AS ACTING DIRECTOR WOULD
LIKELY BE VERY SHORT.
I KNEW THAT BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT TOLD ME THAT WAS THE
LIKELY RESULT.
( LAUGHTER )
NEEDED TO DO TO MAKE SURE THE INVESTIGATIONES OF ON ROCK-SOLID
GROUND.
>> Stephen: THE ASSOCIATED PRESS SAYS THAT YOU ASKED FOR A
BACKUP PLAN TO PROTECT RUSSIA EVIDENCE.
WHAT-- WHAT-- WHAT WAS THAT BACKUP PLAN?
>> I CAN'T TELL YOU THE DETAILS OF THE BACKUP PLAN, BUT I CAN
SAY THIS, STEPHEN.
WE-- THAT'S OUR JOB, RIGHT?
THAT'S OUR JOB TO PREPARE FOR VERY WELLITY.
>> Stephen: IS IT ON, LIKE, A THUMB DRIVE INSIDE A BRICK SOME
PLACE AT DUPONT CIRCLE?
DID YOU HAVE TO DO SPY STUFF TO HIDE IT?
>> IT'S ON THE TAPE REELS THAT TURN TO SMOKE AT THE BEGINNING
OF THE SHOW.
>> Stephen: YEAH, YOU JOKE, BUT NOW I KNOW THOSE ARE REAL
BECAUSE IT'S ITS FIRST THING YOU THOUGHT OF.
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: OKAY-- >> NO, WE NEEDED TO DO IF
DIRECTOR MUELLER WAS SBL FIRED AND HIS TEAM WAS DISBANDED.
AND WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO IN THAT CIRCUMSTANCE WAS TO BE ABLE TO
TAKE OUR CASES BACK AND CONTINUE THAT INVESTIGATION.
THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE THOUGHT THROUGH.
>> Stephen: YOU WORKED FOR MUELLER, DIDN'T YOU?
>> I DID, FOR MANY YEARS.
>> Stephen: WHAT'S HE LIKE AS A PERSON?
>> HE'S A TOUGH GUY.
HE IS-- HE IS A LOT OF WHAT YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT HIM.
HE IS AN INVESTIGATOR AT HEART.
THAT IS WHAT HE LOVES TO DO.
HE LOVES CASES.
HE LOVES TO GET HIS HANDS ON THEM.
HE LOVES TO HEAR THE DETAILS, TALK TO THE INVESTIGATORS, PLAN
STRATEGY, AND MOVE INVESTIGATIONS FORWARD.
SO I AM SURE THAT HE IS JUST AS HAPPY AS HE CAN POSSIBLY BE IN
THE POSITION HE'S CURRENTLY IN.
>> Stephen: HE LOOKS HAPPY.
( LAUGHTER ).
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: JUST A BIG, SILLY GRIN ALL THE TIME ON HIS FACE.
>> THAT'S-- THAT'S ABOUT AS HAPPY AS HE GETS.
( LAUGHTER ).
>> Stephen: HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIM IN CHAOS OR FRENZY?
WHAT'S THE MOST EXERCISED YOU'VE SEEN ROBERT MUELLER?
>> I'VE SEEN HIM FRUSTRATED.
I'VE SEEN HIM, YOU KNOW, DISAPPOINTED WITH THE THINGS WE
WERE TELLING HIM.
>> Stephen: WHAT DOES HE DO?
LIKE, HOW DOES HE EXPRESS HIMSELF?
>> YOU KNOW, WHEN DIRECTOR MUELLER WOULD GET FRUSTRATED WE
HAD THIS SIGN THAT WE WOULD ALWAYS LOOK FOR.
IF HIS HEAD CAME DOWN INTO HIS HAND, WE KNEW IT WAS A PROBLEM.
WE'RE OFF THE RAILS.
>> Stephen: THAT'S FAIRLY COMMON AMONG ALL HUMANS.
>> I THINK SO.
AGAIN, YOU KNOW -- >> Stephen: EXACTLY, YOU'RE A
TOM BRADY F.B.I. MAN.
YOU SEE THOSE THINGS.
>> THIS IS A TELL.
>> Stephen: LIKE THIS.
>> IT WAS JUST LIKE THIS.
>> Stephen: NOW, IN THE BOOK, IN THE BOOK, WHICH IS A GOOD
READ.
YOU LAY THINGS OUT-- WELL, LIKE AN INVESTIGATOR.
YOU LAY THINGS OUT IN AN ORDERLY WAY.
IT'S AN INTERESTING READ.
A VERY INTERESTING READ.
I RECOMMEND IT TO PEOPLE.
I HAVE TO SAY ROD ROSENSTEIN DOES NOT COME OFF GREAT IN THIS
BOOK.
YOU MENTION HE FEELS LIKE THE BLAME FOR FIRING COMB SEGOING TO
BE PINNED ON HIM.
HE'S AFRAID IT'S GOING TO BE PINNED ON HIM BECAUSE HE GAVE
THE PRESIDENT A LETTER JUSTICING THE FIRING OF JAMES COMEY.
>> THAT'S RIGHT.
>> Stephen: DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY HE WOULD DO THAT IF HE
DIDN'T, IT WAS ACTUALLY JUSTIFIED?
BECAUSE YOU AND COMEY IN YOUR BOOK AND IN HIS BOOK ARE VERY
CLEAR WHERE YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE PUSHED, WHERE YOU
WILL NOT GO.
AND I GET THE SENSE THAT ROD ROSENSTEIN FEELS HE WAS PUSHED
INTO A PLACE HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE.
>> LOOK, I CAN'T-- I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT'S IN ROD'S HEAD, BUT
FROM WHAT I OBSERVED, I DON'T THINK THAT ROD REGRETTED WRITING
THE MEMO.
I'M SURE HE WOULD STILL STAND BY THAT TO THIS DAY.
WHAT HE WAS TROUBLED BY WAS THE ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS TO MAKE
IT SEEM AS IF THE ENTIRE THING WAS HIS IDEA WHEN IN FACT, HE
KIND OF STEPPED INTO THE PROCESS AT THE LAST SECOND AND
VOLUNTEERED TO WRITE THAT MEMO.
>> Stephen: ONE OF THE-- ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU-- NOT IN
THE BOOK BUT IN INTERVIEWS, YOU SAID THAT-- THE TWO OF YOU
DISCUSSED, ROD ROSENSTEIN BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF INVOKING
THE 25th AMENDMENT WHICH ALLOWS THE VICE PRESIDENT OR THE
MAJORITY OF THE CABINET, THE SENATE AND HOUSE LEADERS TO
REMOVE THE PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE.
>> THAT WAS.
>> Stephen: HOW DID THAT COME UP AGAIN?
I KNOW PELLEY ASKED YOU THIS QUESTION.
I'M GOING TO ASK YOU AGAIN-- HOW DID THAT SUBJECT COME UP?
>> IFT CAME UP IN THE MIDDLE OF A CHAOTIC AND LONG CONVERSATION
ABOUT WHAT WERE WE GOING TO DO NEXT?
AND, AGAIN, I CAN'T EVEN DESCRIBE TO YOU HOW
HEAD-SPINNING THIS WAS TO BE THE HIGHEST RANKING OFFICIAL IN THE
F.B.I., AND ONE OF THE HIGHEST RANKING OFFICIALS IN THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT CONSIDERING, WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO WE THINK MAY
HAVE ATTEMPTED TO OBSTRUCT JUSTICE, MAY ALSO PRESENT A
NATIONAL SECURITY THREAT TO THE NATION.
WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT THIS?
IN MY LANE THAT MEANS INVESTIGATION, RIGHT.
I'M RUNNING THE INVESTIGATORS.
SO THE QUESTION FOR ME WAS DO WE INVESTIGATE THIS?
IS IT FSO, HOW?
WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DO IT?
AND ROD WAS REALLY JUST KIND OF SPIN THRIEWG A NUMBER OF
DIFFERENT TOPICS.
THAT'S ONE THICK HE MENTIONED IN THE COURSE OF THAT CHAOTIC
CONVERSATION.
IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT I'M AWARE OF THAT EVER WENT ANY
FURTHER THAN THAT-- THAT BRIEF MENTION.
>> Stephen: SO THE QUESTION WAS IF WE HAD TO GET THE
PRESIDENT OUT OF OFFICE, HOW WOULD I DO THAT?
>> WHAT ARE THE WAYS YOU COULD --
>> Stephen: REMOVE A PRESIDENT FROM OFFICE.
OKAY.
LINDSEY GRAHAM HAS CALLED THIS A-- HE-- LET ME GET THIS RIGHT.
HE WANTS TO INVESTIGATE A POTENTIAL COUP.
HOW COUP-YDID IT FEEL TO YOU IN THE MOMENT?
IT'S A CONSTITUTIONAL COUP IN A WAY, BUT IT'S A GREW.
>> I THINK THAT'S A CONTRADICTION IN AND OF ITSELF.
>> Stephen: A CONSTITUTIONAL COUP?
>> YEAH.
>> Stephen: LIKE JUMBO SHRIMP, OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
( LAUGHTER ).
>> IT WAS NOT VERY COUP-Y.
AGAIN, IT WAS A MENTION IN THE MIDSTAVE WIDE-RANGING
CONVERSATION.
I'M NOT AWARE THAT ROD EVER TOOK ANY EFFORTS TO PURSUE THAT.
I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY MEET BUSINESS IT OR OTHER DISCUSSIONS
ON IT.
IT WAS FOR ME REALLY AN INDICATOR OF JUST HOW FRENZIED
AND FRAUGHT THE SITUATION WAS THAT WE WERE IN.
AND THOSE ARE THE KIND OF THINGS THAT WERE BOUNCED AROUND.
>> Stephen: LET'S GET TO THE MUELLER PROBE FOR JUST A MOMENT
HERE.
IS THERE ANYTHING IN THE LAST TWO YEARS THAT MAKES YOU LESLESS
SUSPICIOUS OF THE PRESIDENT, OR LESS INDICATIVE THAT HE HAD
IMPROPER RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE RUSSIANS, POSSIBLE COLLUSION OR
CONSPIRACY?
>> NO.
( LAUGHTER )
>> Stephen: NO
IT DOES SEEM ODD-- IT DOES SEEM ODD IT MIGHT BE JUST SORT OF
USEFUL FOR HIM TO SAY OR DO ANYTHING THAT PUTIN WOULDN'T
LIKE, JUST TO SORT OF TAKE OF HEAT OFF OF HIM, MAKE HIM SEEP
LESS SUSPICIOUS, BUT HE WON'T DO THAT.
>> THAT'S DEFINITELY TRUE.
AND I THINK ON THE-- IN ADDITION TO THAT, AS A RESULT OF THE WORK
THAT THE MUELLER TEAM HAS DONE AND WHAT WE KNOW OF THAT WORK
FROM WHAT'S BEEN DISCLOSED TO THE PUBLIC, I MEAN, YOU HAVE AN
INCREDIBLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN THE CAMPAIGN, CLOSE TO THE
PRESIDENT, WHO HAD NUMEROUS CONTACTS WITH RUSSIANS, PEOPLE
CONNECTED TO RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE.
AND NOW WE HAVE MANY OF THOSE SAME PEOPLE WHO ACTIVELY TRIED
TO COVER UP THOSE CONTACTS.
I MEAN, IT'S-- IT ALL SEEMS TO GET MORE SUSPICIOUS EVERY DAY.
>> Stephen: WE HAVE TO TAKE A BREAK.
DON'T GO AWAY.
WHEN WE COME BACK, WE'RE GOING TO TALK MORE ABOUT THE MUELLER
INVESTIGATION.