TALKING DIRECTLY ON BACK CHANNELS TO NORTH KOREA.
DON'T WORRY. WE HAVE THIS OVER HERE, WHILE HE
SAYS THAT OVER THERE. >> ALL OF THIS BRINGS US TO
ANOTHER OF TRUMP'S SECRETARIES. GENERAL KELLY STEPPED IN TO MAKE
SURE HE DID NOT LEAVE. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT SECRETARY
OF STATE, REX TILLERSON. IN A BLOCKBUSTER, BRAND NEW
EXCLUSIVE REPORT FROM NBC NEWS, WE ARE LEARNING THAT HE WAS ON
THE VERGE OF WALKING AWAY FROM HIS POST OVER THE SUMMER, ONLY
TO BE TALKED OUT OF IT BY VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE AND
GENERALS KELLY AND MATTIS.
TENSIONS CAME TO A HEAD AROUND THE TIME THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP
DELIVERED THAT SPEECH TO THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, WHERE
TILLERSON ONCE SERVED AS ITS PRESIDENT.
ONE OF THE AUTHORS OF THIS EXCLUSIVE NBC NEWS REPORT,
NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER FOR NBC NEWS, CAROL LEE, SHE JOINS
US NOW. ALSO WITH US FROM WASHINGTON,
COLUMNIST AND EDITOR FOR "THE WASHINGTON POST," DAVID
IGNATIUS. >> WHAT WAS IT ABOUT THE BOY
SCOUTS SPEECH THAT FINALLY WAS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S
BACK. >> IT WAS.
THERE WERE A NUMBER OF THINGS LEADING UP TO JULY, THERE WAS
THIS SPAT BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND TILLERSON OVER QATAR WHERE
THE PRESIDENT SAID THEY SHOULD RESOLVE THIS AND THE PRESIDENT
CAME OUT AND BACKED SAUDI ARABIA, YOU HAD THE IRAN NUCLEAR
DEAL AND TILLERSON WAS ARGUING WITH THE PRESIDENT TO RECERTIFY.
THEN, THEY HAD A SERIES OF MEETINGS WHERE AFTER ONE OF THEM
IN LATE JULY, TILLERSON WAS OVERHEARD AFTERWARDS TALKING
WITH CABINET MEMBERS AND WHITE HOUSE OFFICIALS AND REFERRED TO
THE PRESIDENT AS A MORON. HE WAS CLEARLY FRUSTRATED.
YOU HAVE THIS SPEECH AT THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA TO THESE YOUNG
PEOPLE. IT WAS ALL KIND OF COMING
TOGETHER AT THE SAME TIME. IT WAS A REAL INFLECTION POINT
FOR THE SECRETARY. >> SO HE KEPT HIM THERE AND
MATTIS KEPT HIM THERE. OBVIOUSLY, HE IS VERY CLOSE TO
GENERAL MATTIS, SECRETARY MATTIS.
WHAT DID THEY DO TO PERSUADE REX TILLERSON TO STAY SECRETARY OF
STATE WHEN HE HAS JUST BEEN TREATED ABOUT AS BADLY AS ANY
MAJOR CABINET SECRETARY IN RECENT HISTORY?
>> I THINK THEY WERE TRYING TO GET HIM TO STAY ON, THINGS WILL
GET BETTER. WE WILL WORK THIS OUT.
AFTERWARD, TILLERSON WAS IN TEXAS AND HE CAME BACK AND
VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE HAD A MEETING WHERE IT WAS DESCRIBED
TO US AS THEM GIVING HIM A PEP TALK.
IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD, YOU NEED TO GET ON BOARD WITH THE
PRESIDENT'S PROGRAM HERE AND FIGURE OUT WAYS TO DO THAT.
THERE WAS THIS BROAD ATTEMPT AT THIS RESET.
AS WE HAVE SEEN, IT HASN'T REALLY STUCK.
>> HE HAS BEEN CONTROLLING HIM EVEN WITH NORTH KOREA OPENLY.
>> THEN, THERE WAS THIS INCIDENT AT THE END OF AUGUST WHERE
TILLERSON RESPONDED AND WAS ASKED ABOUT THE PRESIDENT'S
RESPONSE TO CHARLOTTESVILLE. HE SAID THE PRESIDENT SPEAKS FOR
HIMSELF. THAT REALLY IRRITATED THE
PRESIDENT. >> HE WAS PUBLICLY CONTROLLING
REX TILLERSON THIS PAST WEEKEND SAYING DON'T WASTE YOUR TIME,
REX. WERE YOUR CALLS OUT AT THAT
POINT TO GET A RESPONSE FROM THE PRESIDENT?
DID THE WHITE HOUSE KNOW THIS STORY WAS COMING WHEN HE WAS
TROLLING REX TILLERSON? >> WE HAD BEEN WORKING ON THIS
STORY FOR A COUPLE OF MONTH, BASICALLY SINCE THE END OF JULY.
>> YOU HAD MADE CONTACT WITH THE WHITE HOUSE?
>> WE HAD MADE CONTACT WITH THEM PREVIOUSLY AND THEN AGAIN ON
SUNDAY. >> IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE
HOW THE PRESIDENT REACTS TO THIS REPORT, FOR SOMEONE WHO CAN'T
TAKE CRITICISM AND LET IT GO UNANSWERED, BEING CALLED A
MORON. >> MIKA CALLS ME A MORON ALL THE
THAT'S NOT NEWS. >> WAS IT SOMETHING SPECIFICALLY
OR BROADLY? >> WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT
THAT SPECIFIC CONVERSATION WAS. IT CAME AFTER THIS MEETING THIS
JULY 19th MEETING IN "THE SITUATION ROOM" ON AFGHANISTAN
WHERE THE PRESIDENT SHOCKED HIS ADVISERS BY COMPARING THE
PROCESS TO THE RENOVATION OF THE 21 CLUB.
A MEETING ON JULY 20th -- >> THAT STORY ENDED UP BEING
FALSE. NOT ONLY WAS IT AN EMBARRASSING
COMPARISON, IT JUST NEVER HAPPENED.
THE 21 CLUB -- 2
. >> THE NEXT DAY, YOU HAVE THIS
OTHER MEETING AT THE PENTAGON WHERE ACCORDING TO OUR SOURCES
IT HAD THE SAME TONE. IT DIDN'T GO VERY WELL.
THE PRESIDENT WASN'T MAKING A DECISION.
SO YOU CAN KIND OF PUT HIS REMARKS IN THAT CONTEXT.
>> DAVID IGNATIUS WAS IN WASHINGTON WITH THAT REPORTING.
THE QUESTION I HAVE IS WHERE THIS IS GOING TO GO.
OBVIOUSLY, THERE IS A GROWING DISTANCE BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE
AND TILLERSON OVER BOTH POLICIES AND PERSONALITIES OVER THE LAST
WEEKS AND YOUR REPORTING SAYS MONTHS.
THE PRESIDENT IS A MORON. TO SAY IN THE CABINET, HE IS
GOING TO HAVE TO GO TO THE WHITE HOUSE AND SAY, I NEVER SAID
THAT, SIR. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT.
HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE A SHOW OF LOYALTY.
HE IS A DIFFERENT GUY. DO YOU THINK HE WILL DO THAT?
HE IS VERY CLOSE TO SECRETARY MATTIS.
THEY TALK EVERY DAY. MATTIS IS HIS STRONGEST
DEFENDER. DO YOU THINK IF THEY TRY TO MOVE
TO PUSH TILLERSON OUT, HOW IS MATTIS GOING TO REACT TO THAT?
>> YOU HIT ON THE KEY WORD, WHICH IS LOYALTY.
THIS IS A PRESIDENT THAT VALUES LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE.
HE IS VERY LIKELY TO SEE THIS COMMENT AS A BETRAYAL.
IT IS HOW HE REACTS TO THAT. WE DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW BUT IF
YOU LOOK AT HIS PAST BEHAVIOR, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HE WOULD
TAKE PERSONALLY, BECAUSE IT IS PERSONAL.
IT IS VERY DIFFERENT. THE POLICY DISPUTES THAT WE HAVE
SEEN THESE TWO HAVE IN THE PAST. >> I'M CURIOUS JUST IN THE VERY
SHORT-TERM HERE, BECAUSE OF ALL THESE THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN
HAPPENING. YOU HAVE THE EXCHANGE OVER THE
NORTH KOREAN DIPLOMACY. WHAT'S IN THIS MOMENT WHEN TRUMP
GOES AFTER TILLERSON AND CUTS HIS KNEES OUT FROM UNDER HIM
OVER THE WEEKEND. DOES TILLERSON THROW UP HIS
HANDS OR IS HE SAYING, THIS IS ALL A PART OF THE GAME.
HE SURPRISED THEM. THEIR VIEW IS THAT HE IS OVER IN
CHINA AND SAYING THINGS WITHOUT CLEARING THEM WITH THE WHITE
HOUSE, WITHOUT GIVING ANYONE A HEAD'S UP AND RUNNING THEM
THROUGH THE TRAPS. THAT IS WHAT CAUGHT PEOPLE OFF
GUARD. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT ABOVE ALL
HAS CAUSED A LOT OF THE FRICTION.
>> SOME REPORTING SUGGESTED THAT THERE MIGHT BE CLASHES WITH
JARED KUSHNER AND SECRETARY TILLERSON.
HAS THAT COMPLICATED THINGS EVEN MORE?
WHEN DID THAT HAPPEN WITH YOUR TIMELINE?
>> THE KUSHNER SPOKESMAN WILL DOWN PLAY THAT.
THERE MAY HAVE BEEN SOME FRICTION IN THE PAST BUT THAT'S
NOT THE CASE NOW. HERE IS THE THING ABOUT
TILLERSON. IF THE PRESIDENT DECIDES TO TURN
ON HIM, IT IS HARD TO SEE WHO IS GOING TO RALLY TO HIS SIDE.
HE HAS NO BIG SUPPORTERS IN CONGRESS, IN THE WHITE HOUSE,
AND EVEN IN HIS OWN STATE DEPARTMENT.
WHEN YOU ARE IN THAT SORT OF DYNAMIC, IT IS HARD TO SEE WHO
IS GOING TO TRY TO COME IN AND SAVE HIM EXCEPT FOR PERHAPS THE
TWO PEOPLE THAT DID IT IN JULY, WHICH IS KELLY AND MATTIS.
>> IS THAT A VERY ARTICULATE WAY TO SAY HE IS NOT PART OF THE
JEDI COUNCIL. >> I AM GOING TO DEFER TO JULIE
PACE. JULIE, JUMP IN.
>> ONE THING I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING.
I HOPE YOU CAN EXPAND ON IT A LITTLE BIT.
THERE WAS A REFERENCE TO PENCE HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH
TILLERSON ABOUT NIKKI HALEY AND ASKING WHETHER TILLERSON THOUGHT
SHE WAS BEING HELPFUL IN THE ADMINISTRATION.
CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT DYNAMIC BETWEEN TILLERSON AND HALEY AND
HOW THAT MIGHT BE AFFECTING HIS FRUSTRATIONS HERE?
>> THERE ARE A LOT OF TENSIONS BETWEEN THE OFFICES OF TILLERSON
AND HALEY BECAUSE SHE IS SEEN AS THE HEIR APPARENT IF HE LEAVES
HIS POST. THAT CAME WITH TILLERSON'S TOP
SPOKESPERSON, R.C. HAMMOND. WHEN I CALLED HIM INITIALLY, HE
SAID, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT MEETING WITH
VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE. THEY TALK ABOUT POLICY.
HE CALLED ME BACK. HE SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS ONE
MEETING WHERE THEY TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING OTHER THAN POLICY,
WHEN THE VICE-PRESIDENT ASKED TILLERSON IF HE THOUGHT THAT
HALEY WAS HELPFUL OR HURTFUL TO THE ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES.
THAT WAS A VERY OVERT WAY OF TAKING A SHOT AT NIKKI HALEY.
>> TO READ THIS ENTIRE NBC EXCLUSIVE REPORTING ON REX
TILLERSON, GO TO NBCNEWS.COM. CAROL WILL HAVE MUCH MORE AND
ANDREA WILL JOIN US LATER THIS MORNING AND NBC NEWS AND MSNBC
WILL HAVE MORE DEVELOPMENTS ON THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORTING
THROUGHOUT THE DAY. >> CAROL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.
WE APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US. WHEN WE COME BACK, WE WILL BE
TALKING TO DAVID IGNATIUS, MORE ABOUT THIS AND THE CHAOS THAT
HAS BEEN GOING ON IN THE WHITE HOUSE, ONLY FOR ABOUT 8 1/2
MONTHS. TOM COLE IS GOING TO BE HERE.
>> YES, HE IS. >> WE ARE GOING TO ASK TOM COLE
WHETHER HE HAS EVER BEEN INVITED TO SPEAKER RYAN'S JEDI COUNCIL
OR WHETHER HE IS STUCK ON THE ICE PLANET.
>> ALSO, THE FORMER GOVERNOR OF PUERTO RICO REACTS TO PRESI