R: Line 5 … Will in Oklahoma City --
where we both were last month.
It was a very nice time that we had.
You guys have some lovely hotels and convention centres,
and that's most of what I saw.
How are you?
W: Doing fine.
R: Did you … You're a believer, right?
W: Yes, I am. R: Were you aware that there was a --
R: teeny-tiny atheist convention going on in your city?
W: No, I wasn't aware.
R: Get your PR guys on that, American Atheists!
Anyway, go on. How are you today?
W: I'm doing fine here. They told you I'm a Christian, right?
R: I saw a short note from the call screener,
but not a lot of details. So, what's up with you?
W: I wanted to call in and say why I believe the Bible is true
and why I think there's evidence. R: Excellent! Can't wait.
W: My first evidence would be
all the missionaries that go into other countries to spread the gospel.
And it just seems to me
that if that wasn't true or reliable,
that they wouldn't make the time or effort to go overseas and ...
R: You know that atheists don't deny the existence of Christians, right?
W: Yeah, I know that.
P: Are you aware that other religions do the same thing?
They send missionairies.
W: I don't think they did it as much as Christians did.
R: Some of them do, some of them don't.
P: Is the number what determines the truth?
R: If you want to see missionaries,
talk to people who are enthusiastic about BitCoin.
P: And Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) knock on every door.
R: Yeah, JWs are way more active than you guys.
They are smaller, but they are real busy.
P: So, based on your logic, you need to convert to JW.
W: Well, I would also say, though,
a lot of them are willing to lay down their lives.
Christians have been killed in other countries for the gospel.
It just seems to me, if that wasn't true,
why would they die for it? P: Some guys flew into a building
for their beliefs. Does that make them right?
R: They really, really believe it.
But that does not make it … make their belief accurate.
True?
W: Martyrs have died over the centuries for the Bible
and it just seems to me all these people
wouldn't have been willing to die.
R: I don't know if you caught what Phil said.
How do you feel about the 9/11 hijackers?
W: They were Muslim, not Christian. P: But they were willing to die
for what they believe in. R: They did die for what they believed in.
P: So, based on your logic, you should be Muslim.
W: I think another evidence is … R: Wait. Are we changing the subject?
P: That's two strikes and no balls. Give us your third one.
R: Go on, yeah.
W: Okay. There's a man I listen to on Christian radio.
His name is Andrew Wommack
and he said that his son's dead body
was in the morgue for 5 hours.
And he prayed to god for him to be healed
and his body was raised from the dead.
R: I find that difficult to believe.
W: I don't think he would lie and make it up.
R: There are a variety of reasons
why people say things that are not true.
And not all of them are because they are deliberately lying.
In a lot of cases … We talked about Muslims and JWs a minute ago.
I do not think that Muslims and JWs
are lying about the things that make them take those religions seriously.
But they are still mistaken about the things
that lead them to believe that those are the one true faiths.
You would agree with that, right? W: Yeah.
P: What I'm noticing is the pattern
in the three examples that you've given us,
is maybe a lack of ability to understand evidence.
The number of people that believe in something
is not evidence for its truth.
Their devotion to an item doesn't mean that it's true
and a testimonial story doesn't mean
that what that person believes is true.
What you need to have is actual, documentable evidence, not a story.
R: Can you … W: Are you familiar with Andrew Wommack?
R: No, I'm not and actually I'm googling him right now,
which I know is great TV.
But can you tell me more details of this story?
Like, what did the son die of
and when was he declared dead and so forth?
W: I don't know the details
but he preached about it several times
and he said that his body was in the morgue for 5 hours.
P: I also assume if you're in the morgue for 5 hours,
that you're locked into one of the little chambers.
R: I don't want to speculate too much
on the details of the story. P: Yes, because it may not matter.
R: But … W: He said his son came back to life.
R: But it sounds like all he had to do was say that
and you believed him and were immediately convinced
that this was good evidence.
Although I assume you were a Christian
before you heard that story, right?
W: Yes, I've been a Christian all my life.
R: So it's not that the story itself convinced you
it's that you heard the story
and it dovetailed with something you already believe
and so you found it easy to take that seriously.
And I'm going to be honest with you,
I don't find it easy to take seriously,
at least not on this point, not yet.
And the fact that you don't know any details
doesn't help me all that much.
W: Okay.
I think another thing I can tell you is the nation of Israel.
The other Arab nations and the terrorists
want to take them out and they can never take them out.
That tells me that god is looking after them.
R: Israel was gone for a couple of thousands of years
before it was specifically reinstituted as a place
by a bunch of people who were interested in fulfilling that prophecy.
P: And based on that logic, you should be Jewish.
So you've got Muslims, JWs, Jewish ...
P: The other thing I think is very interesting to me
is that if you have evidence that's disproven,
you abandon it immediately and go to another evidence.
And it's disproven. And you go to another evidence.
How many of this do you need to show
that your logic has got some problems with it?
W: I think there's all kinds of evidence there.
R: I know you do, but it just seems like
you're not really willing to go into detail on any one of them.
Because as soon as we bring up something
that might be problematic about your logic,
instead of holding on to it and responding to that,
you just change the subject.
P: And by the way, 100 really bad arguments
does not equate one good argument.
W: Okay. About the nation of Israel,
there was the 6-day war in 1967. R: Yeah.
Those other nations were wanting to take out Israel,
and they were stopped.
R: By soldiers. Fighting them. Right? P: And bombs and jetfighters.
R: They weren't stopped by some magical hand reaching down,
like Monty Python or something,
grabbing their planes out of the sky.
There was an actual war with people on the other side,
and the other people won.
It may have been unlikely to have that particular side win,
but as football fans know, unlikely things happen all the time.
Especially, and it's less unlikely
because in more recent times,
they've had the undying support of the US government,
which tips the scales a little bit.
I cannot remember the 6-day war well enough
to say what circumstances were in that case.
But it didn't seem to be god in that case.
It seemed to be an effective army.
W: I did watch a video on it and it says
there were visions of angels or something
that stopped the enemy. R: Did the video include
any footage of the angels?
That would be convincing. P: Not really.
W: Not actually a footage, but people talking about it,
saying it happened. R: But again, people talk about
what they expect to receive in Muslim heaven.
People talk about a lot of things.
P: And Christian countries have lost wars before.
R: That's true, too.
P: And Muslims have won wars. R: That is also true.
P: And the Crusades didn't go very well, did they?
W: Yeah. Are you familiar with the concept of speaking in tongues?
R: Yes! And I've got to tell you, if that's the next one you're going to,
I'm going to advise against it.
But you can if you want.
Let's say that this is going to be the last topic
and the next time you would like to change the subject,
I think it's getting close to time to move on to another caller.
W: I've seen people at the altar of church
to just start weeping, weeping uncontrollably.
What would make them just start crying all of a sudden?
R: Maybe they took a hard look at their life?
I don't mean to be flippant but … P: People cry at weddings, too.
R: I just cried a little bit at the Avengers Infinity War.
No spoilers.
P: I'm starting to tear up over this call, so ...
R: And Infinity Wars, I even knew that none of it was real.
P: What? R: It's not like I ...
P: I had a vision of Spiderman. Are you telling me that's not … ?
R: People crying is not evidence
that they are believing something true.
I have first-hand experience of that, is what I'm saying.
P: You can watch your favourite sports team lose a game.
I've seen people cry over that.
W: But it only happens while they're worshipping during the service.
They can walk into it just totally normal and calm,
and all of a sudden they just start weeping.
P: I have a suggestion for you.
You want to find a movie called 'Marjoe'.
Marjoe is a story about a young man
who at the age of 7 or 8 started becoming a preacher.
He did this until he became 18 and then stopped,
lost his faith and then came back to preach
to show people how it worked.
The documentary shows
how the music, and the sequencing, and the timing
plays on all these emotional responses that humans have,
and how people would end up getting worked up
emotionally and psychologically
to the point that they would cry and give away money,
which was the ultimate purpose of his missionary work,
to collect money.
You might have a better understanding
of how a religious service works from that perspective.
You might find that entertaining and enjoyable.
W: Sometimes people are falling down
on the power of god, too. They fall and ...
P: I don't doubt they fall. R: Right. They do that.
R: But thank you for your call, Will. P: Thank you very much.
R: Nice talking to you.
Sorry we're not convinced yet but it was a good conversation. See you.
W: Alright. Well, I'll pray for you. Bye-bye.
R: I'll let you know if it works. P: Yeah, good luck with that.