WHEN WILL THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE
KNOW HOW MANY RUSSIAN SOLDIERS
HAVE BEEN KILLED IN UKRAINE?
AND HOW WILL THEY REACT TO THE?
THERE WAS A BRIEF MOMENT TODAY
WHEN ONE BRUSHING YOUR SITE
POSTED THE NUMBER OF 9861
RUSHING SOLDIERS KILLED IN
UKRAINE, AND 16,153 WOUNDED.
THAT WAS QUICKLY TAKEN THEM.
AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR
RUSSIAN RESISTANCE TO VLADIMIR
PUTIN WHEN, ACCORDING TO ONE
ESTIMATE, AS MANY AS 250,000
RUSSIANS HAVE FLED FROM RUSSIA
SINCE VLADIMIR PUTIN INVADED
UKRAINE?
OUR NEXT GUEST, MARCIA GOSLYN,
DESCRIBE SOME OF THE PEOPLE
FLEEING RUSSIA.
PEOPLE HAVE FLED RUSSIA BECAUSE
THEY FEAR POLITICAL PERSECUTION,
CONSCRIPTION, AND ISOLATION,
BECAUSE THEY DREAD BEING LOCKED
IN AN UNFAMILIAR NEW COUNTRY
THAT EERILY RESEMBLES THE OLD
SOVIET UNION.
AND BECAUSE, STAYING IN A
COUNTRY THAT IS WAGING WAR
FEELS A MORAL, LIKE BEING
INSIDE A PLANE THAT'S DROPPING
BOMBS ON PEOPLE.
THEY HAVE LEFT BECAUSE THE
RUSSIA THEY HAVE BUILT
UNINHABITED IS DISAPPEARING,
AND THE MORE PEOPLE WHO, LEAVE
THE FASTER IT DISAPPEARS.
JOINING OUR DISCUSSION NOW IS
MARCIA GASTON, STAFF WRITER FOR
THE NEW YORKER, AND AUTHOR OF
THE BOOK, SURVIVING AUTOCRACY.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US TONIGHT.
WE HAVE BEEN CONCENTRATING ON
THE EXODUS FROM UKRAINE, WHICH
IS IMPORTANT AND LIFE-SAVING
UNDER URGENT.
BUT YOU ARE REPORTING ON
ANOTHER EXODUS FROM RUSSIA.
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR RUSSIA
THAT IT IS LOSING THE KINDS OF
PEOPLE WHO CANNOT MORALLY
TOLERATE WHAT IS HAPPENING
THERE?
>> IT'S ODD, IT'S INEVITABLE,
BUT IT'S ODD TO COMPARE THAT
EXODUS FROM RUSSIA TO THE
PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING DISPLACED
BY WAR FROM UKRAINE.
AND I THINK A LOT OF THE PEOPLE
THAT I TALKED TO ARE HYPER
AWARE OF THAT COMPARISON AND I
AGREE TO POINT OUT, LOOK, THIS
IS NOT THE SAME DISASTER.
THE DISASTERS WHAT'S HAPPENING
IN UKRAINE.
AND YET, THERE ARE ALL THESE
PEOPLE AND HAVE THE WORLD IN
MOSCOW.
EVERYONE I KNEW, CERTAINLY THE
PEOPLE WHO MADE MY COMMUNITY,
UP AND LEFT IN LESS THAN TWO
WEEKS.
IT'S NOT JUST A NUMBER OF
PEOPLE, BUT JUST HOW VAST
PEOPLE HAVE GONE.
AND THESE ARE LARGELY PEOPLE
WHO MADE UP CIVIL SOCIETY IN RUSSIA.
IT IS, BY SOME ESTIMATES, HOW
MANY PEOPLE.
UNDER THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN AN
INCREASINGLY ARREST OF SOCIETY, THEY WERE CREATING SOME SPACE
THEY WERE CREATING SOME SPACE
FOR INTERACTION AND
INTERDEPENDENCE, KINDNESS,
FREEDOM, THOUGHT.
>> AND WHAT I'VE READ IN YOUR
ACCOUNTS OF THEM IS THAT, I
DON'T HEAR THEM ASKING FOR
SYMPATHY, I HEAR THEM
EXPRESSING GUILT FOR WHAT HAS
HAPPENED.
I HEAR THEM, IN YOUR REPORTS OF
THEM, TALKING ABOUT HOPING FOR
A FUTURE WHERE THEY CAN GET
BEYOND THIS.
BUT, THE THING THAT ISN'T THERE,
I DON'T I'M READING, IS ANY
SENSE OF, OH, FEEL SORRY FOR ME,
FEEL SORRY FOR, US WE HAD TO
FLEE RUSSIA.
>> YES, I THINK MOST PEOPLE I
TALKED TO ARE VERY CAREFUL NOT
TO SAY FEELS I FROM ME.
BECAUSE, THE COMPARISON IS
INEVITABLE.
I THINK PEOPLE ARE STILL
SORTING IT OUT, AND THEY WILL
BE SORTING IT OUT FOR A WHILE.
THE DEGREES OF RESPONSIBILITY
AND GUILT THAT THEY FEEL.
THEY MOSTLY REJECT THE IDEA OF
COLLECTIVE FEELS.
BUT THERE IS A SENSE OF
RESPONSIBILITY, AND IT'S ODD
THAT THE PEOPLE WHO ENGAGE ARE
THE PEOPLE WHO DID ANYTHING AT
ALL TO TRY TO PREVENT US.
BUT MANY OF THEM SAY, LOOK, WE
OBVIOUSLY DIDN'T DO ENOUGH,
BECAUSE WE CAN PREVENTED.
>> DOES THIS REDUCE THE
POSSIBILITY OF A RECKONING FOR
VLADIMIR PUTIN BECAUSE THESE
ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAVING?
AND WILL THERE BE ANY KIND OF
RECKONING IF AND WHEN THE
RUSSIAN PEOPLE FIND OUT WITH
THE RUSSIAN LOSSES ARE IN
UKRAINE?
>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF
BRUSH TO IT.
ONE IS, WHAT HAPPENS NOW.
ALL RUSSIANS GOING TO FIND OUT?
AND WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT
IF THEY DO, IT WILL TAKE A LONG
TIME, POSSIBLY YEARS, BECAUSE A
LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY
THAT ARE GOING TO BE CONSIDERED
MISSING IN ACTION.
OR, THEY MIGHT EVEN BE A WHILE
FOR THAT TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED,
BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO SURRENDER
THE CELL PHONES BEFORE THEY
WERE DEPLOYED.
RUSSIANS HAVE LEGALIZED THE USE
OF MASKS, THERE IS
MOCKUMENTARY.
SO FAMILIES WHO DON'T HEAR FROM
THEIR LOVED ONES, MAYBE WEEKS
OR MONTHS BEFORE THEY REALLY
START TO CONSIDER THE
POSSIBILITY THAT THESE PEOPLE
ARE THAT.
AND THEN, ALSO, WITH THE TOLL
AND CRACKDOWN ON MEDIA, YOU
DON'T GET TO SEE THAT
INFORMATION GETTING AROUND.
IT'S A VAST COUNTRY.
PEOPLE ARE BEING CONSCRIPTED
FROM ALL OVER COUNTRY.
SO, IN A SITUATION WAS THAT HE
IS REALLY ITEMIZE AND PEOPLE
ARE NOT TALKING TO ANYONE IN
THEIR IMMEDIATE SURROUNDINGS,
MAYBE QUITE A LONG TIME, IF IT
EVER HAPPENS, THE PEOPLE
REALIZE HOW VESSEL US IS OUR.
SO AS ONE KIND OF RECKONING,
AND THAT RECKONING AS, WHAT
HAPPENS AFTER PUTIN ANDS?
IT WILL AND AT SOME POINT.
AND WE HAVE SEEN IN THE LAST
FEW WEEKS THAT I THINK IS
INCREDIBLY ARE STARVING, IS
THAT NOT ONLY IS IT IMMEDIATELY
FORCED TO SHUT DOWN, BUT THEY
ALSO, ON MANY OCCASIONS, FOR US
TO MOVE THEIR CONTENT.
SO IT IS EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE
GOING TO BE DEALING WITH FOR A