>>> ATHLETES AS ACTIVISTS IS NOTHING NEW.
THINK JACKIE ROBINSON, THE FIRST AFRICAN-AMERICAN TO PLAY MAJOR
LEAGUE BASEBALL IN THE MODERN ERA.
A RECENTLY ANNOUNCED NFL POLICY SEEKS TO STOP PLAYERS FROM
KNEELING DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM.
THAT ACT, PLAYERS SAY, PROTESTS RACIAL AND SOCIAL INJUSTICE.
BUT THE LEAGUE AND PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAVE INSTEAD LINKED
IT TO DISRESPECT FOR THIS COUNTRY.
I DISCUSSED HOW WE GOT HERE WITH MARTY DOBROW, SPRINGFIELD
COLLEGE PROFESSOR OF COMMUNICATION, AND BILL NEWMAN,
DIRECTOR OF THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION OF WESTERN
MASSACHUSETTS.
>> TO ME IT'S SORT OF A NATIONALISM VERSUS PATRIOTISM
KIND OF QUESTION.
I THINK NATIONALISM TO ME, I SORT.
REGARD AS OUR COUNTRY IS BETTER THAN YOUR COUNTRY, OR PEOPLE ARE
BETTER THAN YOUR PEOPLE, WE CAN IMMOTION OUR WILL UPON YOU.
USUALLILY A NEGATIVE FORCE IN THE WORLD.
I THINK PATRIOTISM, AS I TAKE IT, I THINK THIS IS A PATRIOTIC
QUESTION, I THINK THAT'S REALLY ABOUT HAVING A COMMITMENT TO,
AND I USE THESE WORDS VERY CONSCIOUSLY, MAKE AMERICA
GREATER.
THAT TO ME IS REALLY THE CRUX OF THIS.
AND -- >> DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD BE
THE CRUX IF PRESIDENT TRUMP DIDN'T USE THAT PHRASE SO OFTEN?
>> WELL, THAT'S NOT HIS PHRASE.
HIS PHRASE IS MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.
I THINK THERE'S A DISTINCTION.
WHEN I SAY MAKE AMERICA GREATER, WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT IS A
RECOMMITMENT TO SORT OF TIME HONORED AMERICAN IDEALS.
IN OUR FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, WE THE PEOPLE, BEING CREATED EQUAL,
MULTICULTURAL SOCIETY SORT OF THING.
THAT TO ME IS REALLY AT THE ESSENCE OF PATRIOTISM, AND I
THINK IT REALLY BEGS THE QUESTION, WHO ARE THE PATRIOTS.
IN NEW ENGLAND, THAT'S OUR TEAM, RIGHT, THE PATRIOTS.
WE SHOULD REALLY ASK THAT QUESTION, WHO ARE THE REAL
PATRIOTS?
AND SOME PEOPLE MIGHT INTERPRET THAT AS PEOPLE WHO SERVE IN THE
MILITARY, AND CERTAINLY SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
INCREDIBLY PATRIOTIC, YOU KNOW, POLICE OFFICERS AT TIMES, PEOPLE
WHO UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW, EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW,
THAT CAN BE HIGH LEVEL PATRIOTISM.
BUT IT'S ALSO TRUE, I THINK, THAT HISTORICALLY OUR PATRIOTS
HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN COMMITTED TO CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE
RIGHT FROM THE FOUNDING OF OUR NATION.
AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK WE'RE LOOKING AT IN THIS CASE.
>> THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING AT THIS AND SAYING THIS
IS AN EMPLOYER MAKING A DECISION, SAYING THAT THEY DON'T
WANT THEIR EMPLOYEES TO DO X, Y OR Z.
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
>> WELL, I THINK WE HAVE TO LOOK AT HOW THIS ENTIRE PROTEST
BEGAN.
IT BEGAN WITH COLIN KAEPERNICK SAYING, I AM PROTESTING RACISM,
AND MORE SPECIFICALLY I AM PROTESTING POLICE BRUTALITY THAT
IS INFLICTED ON COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.
AND THAT'S WHAT THE PROTEST IS.
>> BUT THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T INTERPRET IT THAT
WAY.
>> OH -- >> HASN'T THIS GONE OFF THE
RAILS IN SOME SENSE?
>> YES, BUT I THINK THAT'S DONALD TRUMP.
BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP REFRAMED AND PROTEST AND HE SAID THAT'S
NOT WHAT THE PROTEST IS, IT'S ABOUT DISRESPECT FOR THE FLAG.
AND KAEPERNICK SAID NO NO NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT THE PROTEST IS,
AND THAT'S NOT WHAT THE PLAYERS SAID, THEY SAID IT'S ABOUT
PROTESTING RACISM AND SPECIFICALLY POLICE MISCONDUCT
AND BRUTALITY IN COMMUNITIES OF COLOR.
>> WHY DO YOU THINK SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE GONE ALONGS WITH THE
PRESIDENT'S ASSERTION?
>> BECAUSE -- WAIT A SECOND.
PATRIOTISM, AS MARTY POINTS OUT, IS A CORE VALUE PROTEST.
AND PATRIOTISM HAS AS A CORE VALUE, EQUAL PROTECTS OF THE
LAW, AND ALL PEOPLE BEING TREATED EQUALLY UNDER THE LAW.
AND SO TO PROTEST THE LACK OF EQUAL PROTECTION, TO USE THOSE
FIRST AMENDMENT VALUES TO SPEAK OUT AND SAY THIS IS WRONG,
POLICE BRUTALITY IS WRONG, INFLICTION OF PAIN AND VIOLENCE
ON COMMUNITIES OF COLOR BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN OR
THEIR ETHNICITY, THAT'S WRONG.
WHAT COULD BE MORE PATRIOTIC THAN THAT?
>> SO WHY DO YOU THINK THE OWNERS HAVE GONE AND TAKEN THIS
VERY FIRM STANCE SAYING IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO THIS, WE'RE GOING
TO FINE YOU.
>> SOME OWNERS.
LET'S POINT OUT THAT AT LEAST ONE OWNER SAID, YOU HAVE A RIGHT
AS A PATRIOTIC PERSON -- >> I'M SORRY, I SHOULD HAVE SAID
THE LEAGUE.
WHEN YOU GET AT THE OWNERS LEVEL IT'S DIFFERENT.
BUT THE LEAGUE CAME OUT AND SAID THIS IS THE WAY IT IS.
>> BECAUSE THE LEAGUE IS GUTLESS AND THE LEAGUE SAID, WELL, IF
THE PRESIDENT TELLS US TO DO THIS WE ARE GOING TO BLOW TO THE
PRESIDENT.
>> WHAT RECOURSE TO THE PLAYERS HAVE AT THIS POINT?
DO WE HAVE TO WAIT UNTIL THE FALL AND SEE HOW THEY REACT?
>> I THINK THERE IS -- I DON'T WANT TO PREDICT WHAT THE
PLAYERS WILL DO.
>> YOU'RE AN ATTORNEY, DO THEY HAVE LEGAL RECOURSE?
COULD THEY IN TURN SUE AND SAY NO THIS IS NOT, THIS IS A
VIOLATION OF OUR RIGHTS?
>> I THINK THERE IS A LABOR LAW VIOLATION HERE.
I THINK THAT THE LEAGUE AND THE OWNERS HAVE UNILATERALLY WITHOUT
NEGOTIATION CHANGED A WORKING CONDITION.
THERE WAS NO NEGOTIATION, AND I THINK THAT VIOLATES THE
OBLIGATIONS IN ANY EMPLOYER DEALING WITH THE UNION TO
NEGOTIATE WITH THE UNION BEFORE THERE IS A CHANGE OF WORKING
CONDITIONS.
SO I DO THINK WHAT THE LEAGUE DID AS A MATTER OF LABOR LAW IS
ILLEGAL.
WHAT THE PLAYERS WILL DO ON THE BIG QUESTION OF THEIR RIGHT TO
PROTEST AND THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE STATEMENTS IN THE WORKPLACE,
THAT'S GOING TO BE A DIFFERENT QUESTION.
AND THIS CAME AS A PROTEST, A VALID PROTEST, AN IMPORTANT
PROTEST MAKING IMPORTANT STATEMENTS, AND I HOPE THE
PLAYERS FINE A WAY TO EXERCISE THOSE FIRST AMENDMENT VALUES AND
MAKE THEIR STATEMENTS KNOWN AND TO NOT BE COWED BY THE OWNERS
AND THE LEAGUE, WHICH AND THE LEAGUE, BY THE WAY, AS I SAID
GUTLESS.
PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS DO THIS, AND THEY SAY YES, SIR.
>> SO, MARTY, FOR YOU IN A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE WHEN YOU
LOOK AT SPORTS PLAYERS, USING THEIR PLATFORM TO PROTEST, THIS
IS NOT NEW, RIGHT?
>> IT'S NOT NEW, BUT IT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN REVITALIZED AND
REENERGIZED IN AN UNPRECEDENTED WAY IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.
YOU COULD GO BACK 50 YEARS AGO, WE'RE LOOKING BACK SO MUCH AT
1968 THIS YEAR, AND THAT'S AMONG MANY OTHER HISTORICAL LANDMARKS,
IN THE '68 OLYMPICS WE HAD TWO SPRINTERS ON THE MEDAL STAND
WITH THEIR BLACK POWER SALUTE, AND THAT WAS SORT OF A SIMILAR
DYNAMIC.
NAY WERE REALLY CRUCIFIED BY A LOT OF MEMBERS OF THE COUNTRY
WHO WERE NOT HONORING THE SINCERITY OF THEIR PROTEST.
THIS WAS A YEAR IN WHICH MARTIN LUTHER KING HAD BEEN
ASSASSINATED.
YOU CAN WELL UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE OF COLOR WOULD REALLY
FEELEN FRANCHISED DURING THIS YEAR.
IN THE YEARS FOLLOWING THAT, FOR THE MOST PART, I THINK ATHLETES
WERE QUIET.
THEY BECAME VERY WELL COMPENSATED.
FAMOUSLY YOU HAD CHARLES BARKLEY SAYING I AM NOT A ROLE MODEL IN
A COMMERCIAL.
>> DIDN'T MICHAEL JORDAN SAY REPUBLICANS BUY SNEAKERS TOO,
SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
IT BECAME PARAMOUNT AND THAT WAS UNFORTUNATE, BECAUSE NAY DO HAVE
A GREAT FORUM.
AND ULTIMATELY I DON'T THINK THEY GET TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT
THEY ARE A ROLE MODEL.
THEY ARE.
THEY ARE IN THE PUBLIC EYE.
AND I THINK WE HAVE SEEN IN CONNECTION WITH A LOT OF RECENT
CURRENT EVENTS OVER THE LAST THREE OR FOUR YEARS, ATHLETES
GETTING A VOICE AND PEOPLE LIKE LEBRON JAMES IN THE NBA,
CERTAINLY COLIN KAEPERNICK IN THE NFL, BEGINNING TO SPEAK OUT
AND USE THAT VOICE.
I THINK THAT'S A REALLY HEALTHY DYNAMIC.
AND I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH BILL THAT I THINK THE OWNERS REALLY
CAVED IN THIS SITUATION.
IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW THE PLAYERS WILL RESPOND.
BUT AGAIN THAT TRADITION, THAT STRAND OF CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE, OF
STANDING UP WHEN THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT, I REGARD AS SOMETHING
THAT IS FUNDAMENTALLY PATRIOTIC.
YOU LOOK AT SOMEONE LIKE MARTIN LUTHER KING, WHAT GREATER
PATRIOT HAVE WE HAD?
WHEN WE SAY HE WAS NOT PATRIOTIC BECAUSE HE WAS ARRESTED, BECAUSE
HE BROKE SOME LAWS?
IF THOSE LAWS WERE THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO ORDER FOOD IN A
WHITES ONLY ESTABLISHMENT, TO ME IT'S PRETTY CLEAR.
>> DOES TIME AND DISTANCE CHANGE THAT LENS OF HISTORY?
WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER OF THAT MOMENT OF '68, RIGHT?
>> YOU JUST HEAR THE -- >> IF YOU WERE TO RECALL.
>> I DO RECALL.
>> DO YOU THINK THAT HISTORY LOOKS AT THAT DIFFERENTLY?
>> I THINK THAT HISTORY PUTS IT IN CONTEXT.
AND I THINK MAKES IT EASIER TO SEE WHY THAT PROTEST HAPPENED IN
THE WAY IT HAPPENED, AND I THINK THIS CONVERSATION IS IMPORTANT
TO PUT IN CONTEXT TOO, BECAUSE THESE ARE FOOTBALL PLAYERS.
THAT'S A VERY VIOLENT SPORT.
WHAT THEIR PROTEST WAS SAYING, VIOLENCE SHOULD NOT BE ON THE
STREETS.
VIOLENCE SHOULD NOT BE PERPETRATED AGAINST PERSONS OF
COLOR.
VIOLENCE DOES NOT BELONG IN AMERICAN SOCIETY, PARTICULARLY
WHEN IT IS EXERCISED ILLEGALLY AND IMPROPERLY BY AUTHORITIES.
AND I THINK THAT THAT IS AT THE CORE OF AMERICAN VALUES, AND AT
THE CORE OF DEMOCRACY, WHICH IS TO PROTEST AGAINST THAT WHICH IS
IMPROPER AND WRONG AND IMMORAL AND VIOLENT.
AND THE PLAYERS WERE SAYING THAT.
AND THEY SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THAT.
>> WE'LL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.
>> THANK YOU.