Speaker 1: Let's go next to Deshawn from Atlanta, Georgia. Deshawn, welcome to the program.
Deshawn, please. Speaker 4: A yellow. Yellow.
How are you doing today? I'm doing well. Good. But I have two quick questions for you. Sure.
So one. How is your feel or outlook on that kid that got sent home for having a shirt
that said there's only two genders? Speaker 1: I don't know where that
happened. Where did that happen? Speaker 4: It was I don't know. I
saw Instagram on some kid. He he wore a shirt to school and people were saying that they
felt unsafe and that he was he was being like a distraction or something. What what's your.
Speaker 1: So here it is. Seventh grader sent home for wearing t shirt that said there are only two
genders. This is a 12 year old and we don't have to say the kid's name was removed from
gym class and told to take off his shirt because people were complaining it was making them feel
unsafe. He refused. They called his father. His father ended up having to pick them up.
Listen, I don't I don't know how I feel about this. You know, on the one hand, how involved do
we want to get in how kids dress at public schools with no dress code? Obviously, they can't wear
things that are obscene, I guess would be the law. The question is, is that an obscene shirt? I agree
that it could be a shirt that is deeply troubling and offensive to people. Is it obscene? I don't
know. So I'm not sure about the legal basis. Speaker 4: I was way, way, way. I have a quick
what's what's your what's what's what's the what's the problem with it, though? You said that you
said that there was something wrong with wearing. Speaker 1: Well, in that it's not that I said that
there's something wrong, but like let I'll give you a scenario. Right. Imagine that you are a
trans person, right? You were you're biologically male, but you are trans, you identify as female
and you are starting to, you know, dress and style yourself the way women traditionally do
in modern society. I could see how seeing that shirt is going to cause you stress and anxiety
and potentially make you feel unsafe because it's a very like, listen, I'll give you an opinion.
Speaker 4: But I'll give you that go. I mean, he he got sent he got sent home for
wearing a t shirt that says a fact. Speaker 1: Well, hold on a second.
Speaker 4: You can. Nothing wrong with that. That's just his. That's
his. His. You know what I'm saying? Speaker 1: Hold on a second, Sean,
but let's wait a second. Let's just wait a second. Hold on, Deshawn, you're switch.
You're. You're jumping between saying the shirt is a fact versus people's rights. Let's pick one
of these things to focus on. Right? Because you're jumping all around. All right, let's.
Speaker 4: All right, all right. So let's let's let's just. Let's put this a scenario.
Okay. Yeah. Let's say I go to school and. And I go to school and it says,
I'll wear a shirt that says there's only boy and girl. All right, What? Tell me. Tell me if that's
a legitimate reason for me to get sent home. Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm. I don't know that it
is a legitimate reason to be sent. Hi. It doesn't need, like. Well, hold up,
Deshawn. You're not even letting me talk, though. Speaker 4: No, I'm letting you talk, bro, but I'm
just. I'm just trying. You know what I'm saying? Speaker 1: No, but every three words, you're
interrupting me. Here's the thing I'm struggling with. I am close to a free speech absolutist in
that I really don't want to be restricting the speech of individuals unless there's,
like, a very clear reason to do so. And when we talk about clothes being worn in school,
my tendency would be to say, let's let's not get involved in schools making those decisions. I'm
thinking of let's just think about another shirt that someone could wear. Right. Like I'm a Jewish
person. Imagine that I'm 12 and someone wears a shirt to school that says all non-Christians
are going to hell. It's certainly not an illegal shirt. But as a Jewish person, I'm going to see
that and say, Wow, that's a lot of damn hostility towards me based on my identity. Does this person
know my identity or not? Am I safe? Is this going to be a comfortable learning environment? So,
you know, Deshawn, if you listen to my show, you know, I'm not big on trigger warnings or
any of this. Call it a safe space thing. But I'm struggling with what should be allowed in a
middle school for sure. I don't know the answer. Speaker 3: All right. I mean, that does that's
that's a reasonable that's a reasonable answer. Speaker 1: Would you. Can I ask you
a question to Sean? Speaker 4: Oh, yeah,
sure. Go ahead. Yeah. I mean, I thought I was asking the question, but. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we can both ask questions. That's the beautiful thing about
independent media. Would you agree? Separate now from biological sex? Do you agree that people
express gender on a spectrum? I'm not asking your opinion of whether it's good or bad. Do
you just agree that people express their gender? Speaker 4: I agree. I agree that if you have
a certain belief of biology and your science stands on it and you have that sort of belief,
then you can stand by it. You can stand by. Why, that's my.
On biology. Speaker 1: No, but let me ask you,
can I rephrase the question? Speaker 4: You can't because
there ain't no spectrum on biology. Speaker 1: I'm not. That wasn't my question
there. Is it okay if I just restate my question a different way and then you can answer it or not?
Speaker 4: Okay, But I have a second question that I didn't I didn't ask it.
Speaker 1: Let's get to that in a second. Let me just first just to make me feel good. Flatter me.
Let me ask my question one more time, okay? Speaker 4: Collider You what? What you
mean by that? Well, okay. Okay, go ahead. Speaker 1: Indulge is maybe what I mean. Would
you agree that the Rock, Dwayne The Rock Johnson and the fashion designer Isaac Mizrahi, are both
biologically male. Would you agree with that? Speaker 4: I mean, the rock is a man.
And to whoever. I don't know the other person, but if they're a guy, then yeah, then they're a man.
Speaker 1: Okay. Would you also agree that despite both being biological men, they express their
gender very differently, where the rock expresses significantly more masculinity while Isaac Mizrahi
expresses more what we might associate with femininity? Would you agree with that?
Speaker 4: Okay. Speaker 1: Yes, yes,
but. But listen. No, but hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
Speaker 4: Is identity. Speaker 1: Now what I'm
not saying anything about by all. Speaker 4: Oh, hold on. Well, the
difference between expressing and what you are. Speaker 1: But I'm. All I'm asking you.
Speaker 4: Is you can. You can express yourself all you want. See, the rock
can express yourself as as a dress wearing. Speaker 1: Yes, but, Deshawn, more like. Okay,
now we're going now. But now that you're swearing, we're going to have to bleep.
So we can't just please don't. All I'm saying to Sean, all I'm saying is my question was,
do you agree? PG Do you agree that gender is expressed on a spectrum and you agreed with
the example I just gave that That's true. I'm not pushing any other beliefs on you other than that.
Bill, what's. Speaker 4: Your
what's your idea on a spectrum, though? Speaker 1: I don't understand that biological
men express different levels of masculinity and femininity in their expression, and so do
biological men. That's all. That's all I'm saying. You agree the gender is expressed on a spectrum.
Speaker 4: Well, people express their gender in different ways. I mean,
you can say you can say you're a man, but then on the other hand, you can act like you're like
you're not a man. I'm saying, All right. Speaker 1: I think I got real quick.
What was your other question, Deshawn? Speaker 4: And oh, yeah, this was this
was actually a very, very important question. Okay. What do you think about. Women, trans women
going into sports, playing against other women. Speaker 1: Okay, I've addressed this a thousand
times. I think in a lot of sports, it doesn't matter. I think we do need.
Speaker 4: To figure out what matter. Speaker 1: Well, there are certain sports
where physical strength is not the sort of determining factor of advantage. But I agree
that we need to figure out in certain sports how to handle that. I don't know the answer. I
think it's a tough question and I don't have an answer. I think it does have to be figured out.
Speaker 4: That it is. It is actually because you know how there's the WNBA and there's the
NBA. Like there's a there's a reason. Speaker 1: Yeah, but I agree with you,
Deshawn. I agree with you on basketball. I'm agreeing with you on basketball. I would agree
with you. I don't I don't know what we do. It seems we need to figure that out.
Speaker 4: Is it is it now? Is it now that we have to make a trans sports league thing? Like
is this what we're going to have to do? Like, do you understand what I'm saying?
Speaker 1: I do. We can't. That's been being. Speaker 4: Against women, manhandling women. No,
I'm saying that that's just ridiculous. Speaker 1: All right, Deshaun, thank you so much.
There's Deshawn from Atlanta. He's acting like my views on these issues are totally different from
what they are like. Yeah, we got to figure that out. I mean, in some sports, I'm not sure what
you do. We've talked about do you have to look at, um, does there have to be some medical consensus
about whether, I don't know in some sports what we do? I'm not pretending that we've solved that.
So there's no reason to, you know, put pretend like my view as something other than what it is