OPERATIVES, AND HE’S GOING AFTER THE INTEGRITY OF THE COUNTRY’S
CHIEF JUSTICE FOR SPEAKING OUT
ABOUT IT.
ABOUT IT. JOINING ME NOW ON THE PHONE IS
NEIL, CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER AND
FORMER ACTING SOLICITOR GENERAL
UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA.
NEIL, I WANT TO GET TO YOU
STRAIGHT AWAY ON THIS.
WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS FIGHT
BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES AND THE CHIEF
JUSTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT?
>> WELL, IT’S REALLY QUITE
EXTRAORDINARY.
EXTRAORDINARY. I’M NOT AWARE OF ANYTHING REALLY
LIKE IT IN OUR LIFETIME.
THE CHIEF JUSTICE, I HAVE
APPEARED BEFORE HIM 37 TIMES IN
TARGET CASES.
TARGET CASES. THE ADJECTIVES YOU THINK ABOUT
WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE CHIEF
JUSTICE ARE RESTRAINED, BILL
BRILLIANT, DIGNIFIED.
BRILLIANT, DIGNIFIED. THAT’S EVERYTHING DONALD TRUMP
ISN’T.
ISN’T. I THINK THIS WHOLE EPISODE
DEMONSTRATES THAT.
DEMONSTRATES THAT. TRUMP IS SAYING SOME PRETTY
EXTRAORDINARY THINGS ABOUT THE
COURTS, THINGS THAT HE’S
ACTUALLY JUST STATISTICALLY
WRONG ON, LIKE THAT IT’S THE
MOST OVERTURNED COURT IN THE
LAST FIVE YEARS.
THAT’S NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE
MOST OVERTURNED COURT.
IT’S MORE THAN THAT.
IT’S THE CORROSIVE ATTITUDE
ABOUT COURTS AND THE RULE OF
LAW.
LAW. >> THIS ATTITUDE ABOUT COURTS
AND THE RULE OF LAW, WHAT’S THE
CONSEQUENCE?
CONSEQUENCE? >> I MEAN, IT’S HUGE.
I DON’T THINK THAT TRUMP IS
REALLY -- HE CARES MUCH ABOUT
THE 9th CIRCUIT, PER SE.
I THINK THERE IS A BIGGER
PROGRAMMATIC AGENDA OF WHICH
THIS IS PART, WHICH IS TO
LEGITIMATIZE THE COURT SYSTEM,
TO ATTACK THE COURTS, AND ATTACK
THE CHIEF JUSTICE.
I THINK IT’S VERY SIMILAR TO HOW
HE TREATS ANY OTHER CHECK AND
BALANCE, ANY OTHER INSTITUTION
AGAINST HIM, WHETHER IT’S THE
MEDIA WHICH YOU OBVIOUSLY, KATY,
KNOW WELL, ALL THE STUFF ABOUT
CNN, ACCOSTA, THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT AND FBI, FROM FIRING
HIS ATTORNEY GENERAL, FIRING
COMEY, THE FBI DIRECTOR.
YOU KNOW, BASICALLY HIS M.O. IS
TO ATTACK ANY INSTITUTION, ANY
CHECK AND BALANCE THAT STANDS IN
HIS WAY, AND THAT’S WHY I THINK,
YOU KNOW, THE WORDS YOU SAID AT
THE OUTSET OF THE PROGRAM ARE
RIGHT.
RIGHT. THESE ARE THE ACTIONS OF
AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS.
AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENTS. THEY ARE CERTAINLY NOT THE
ACTIONS OF ANY PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES IN OUR LIFETIME.
>> WOULD THIS MEAN ANYTHING FOR
A FIGHT POTENTIALLY, AN ACTUAL
FIGHT IN THE SUPREME COURT
BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND ROBERT
MUELLER’S TEAM FOR SUBPOENA
POWER FOR THE PRESIDENT?
AND THAT GOES TO THE SUPREME
COURT, WOULD THIS AFFECT A
RULING?
RULING? >> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE NINE
JUSTICES ARE WISE ENOUGH TO DO
THE THING THAT THEY’RE GOING TO
DO AND MAKE THE DECISIONS
THEY’RE GOING TO MAKE.
SO, I DON’T THINK, YOU KNOW,
THIS EPISODE, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN
SAY IT’S GOING TO MEAN MUELLER
WILL WIN OR TRUMP WILL LOSE OR
ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
BUT I THINK IT DOES DEMONSTRATE
THE PRESIDENT AND THE RULE OF
LAW.
LAW. IT MAY NOT AFFECT THE CASES THAT
GO TO THE SUPREME COURT.
BUT REMEMBER THE CHIEF JUSTICE
HAS ONE OTHER REALLY IMPORTANT
ROLE IN OUR CONSTITUTION, WHICH
IS TO PRESIDE OVER THE
IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS OF A
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THINGS
ARE LOOKING THAT VERY WELL MAY
HAPPEN, AND THE CHIEF JUSTICE
MAY BE PRESIDING OVER THIS MAN
THAT HE’S NOW IN THIS TWITTER
FIGHT WITH.
FIGHT WITH. >> LET ME ASK YOU THIS.
IF HE LOSES THE SUBPOENA BATTLE
AT THE SUPREME COURT, AND THAT’S
OBVIOUSLY AN IF BECAUSE THERE IS
NOT EVEN A SUBPOENA BATTLE AT
THE SUPREME COURT YET.
BUT IF HE DOES LOSE ONE, WILL HE
NOW TRY TO SAY THAT JUSTICE
ROBERTS WAS NOT A FAN OF DONALD
TRUMP’S AND USE THIS POLITICAL
ATTACK THAT HE’S LAUNCHING ON
THE JUDICIARY AS A WAY TO
INOCULATE HIMSELF IN THE FUTURE
BY SAYING, WELL, I ATTACKED THEM
SO THEY MUST HATE ME WHICH MEANS
THAT’S WHY THEY RULED AGAINST
ME?
ME? >> EXACTLY, 100%.
THAT IS PRESIDENT TRUMP’S GOAL
HERE, DE-LEGITIMATIZE THE
CONSTITUTION OF THE COURT.
THEY WERE BIASED AGAINST ME.
THAT’S WHAT THE CHIEF JUSTICE
WAS REBELG AGAINSTLING AGAINST,
OF A TRUMP JUDGE OR OBAMA JUDGE.
THERE ARE JUST JSZ THISUDGES IN
COUNTRY.
COUNTRY. I THINK OF JUSTICE KAGAN WHO
WERE PUT ON THE COURT, WITHIN
THE FIRST YEAR SHE WAS PUT ON BY
PRESIDENT OBAMA, BUT SHE VOTED
AGAINST PRESIDENT OBAMA’S HEALTH
CARE PLAN IN A GOOD PART, VOTED
TO STRIKE SOME OF IT DOWN.
THAT’S THE KIND OF INDEPENDENCE
OUR FOUNDERS ENVISIONED WHEN IT
COMES TO THE SUPREME COURT, NOT
THIS KIND OF, YOU KNOW,
PRESIDENT’S LACKEY THING WHICH
THE PRESIDENT JUST TRIED TO DO
NOW WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
AND I’M SURE HE’S GOING TO TRY
TO DO WITH THE COURTS, TOO.
>> AND OUR GOOD FRIEND CHUCK
ROSENBERG WAS HERE POINTING OUT
THAT IN, WITH NIXON AND WITH
CLINTON, JUDGES THAT WERE WERE
APPOINTED BY BOTH MEN RULED
AGAINST THEM IN SUBPOENA FIGHTS
WHEN THERE WERE INVESTIGATIONS
INTO THOSE TWO PRESIDENTS.
SO, IN THAT WAY THOSE JUDGES
WERE NOT PROTECTERS OF THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
>>> MY OTHER QUESTION IS
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT.
SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT. ARE WE AS A SOCIETY MORE TO
BLAME FOR THIS THAN WE’RE
WILLING TO LET ON, GIVEN THE WAY
THAT WE TALK ABOUT JUDGES, GIVEN
THE WAY THAT WE TALK ABOUT
SUPREME COURT NOMINEES, AND THEN
JUSTICES?
JUSTICES? THIS IS AN OBAMA JUSTICE.
THIS IS A TRUMP JUSTICE.
WE TALK A LOT ABOUT IT WITH
KAVANAUGH.
KAVANAUGH. WE’VE TALKED ABOUT IT WITH
GORSUCH.
GORSUCH. WE ASSUMED THEY WOULD RULE A
CERTAIN WAY BECAUSE OF BEING
APPOINTED OR NOMINATED BY DONALD
TRUMP.
TRUMP. DOES SOME OF THE BLAME HERE FOR
THIS BEING SUCH A FERTILE GROUND
FOR DONALD TRUMP LIE WITH US?
>> WELL, I THINK THAT’S A WISE
POINT YOU’RE MAKING, KATY.
WE ALL SHARE SOMETHING ABOUT
THAT.
THAT. I AGREE WITH THAT.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW,
IT’S THE PRESIDENT’S JOB TO RISE
ABOVE THAT AND TO CALL FOR
BETTER ANGELS.
BETTER ANGELS. TO TALK ABOUT REALLY WHAT THE
COURTS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT,
BOTH FROM OUR FOUNDING DESIGN ON
AND NOT TO GIVE IN TO THOSE
IMPULSES.
IMPULSES. THAT’S WHY YOU HAVE INTACT
ANYTHING LIKE THE REMARKS YOU
HAVE BY THIS PRESIDENT.
EVERY TIME HE LOSES A CASE, OH,
THAT’S A SO-CALLED JUDGE, THAT
JUDGE IS BIASED BECAUSE THEY’RE
HISPANIC OR THINGS LIKE THAT.
THIS IS EQUALLY DEEPLY CORROSIVE
AND IT TAKES A LOT, I’M SURE, TO
GET THE CHIEF JUSTICE UPSET AND
TO HAVE HIM MAKE ANY SORT OF
REMARK.
REMARK. BUT, YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP
MANAGED TO DO THAT, AND THAT TO
ME IS AN INCREDIBLY TELLING
THING.
THING. >> A PRESIDENT SHOULD BE BETTER
THAN US ALL.
NEAL KATYAL.