FIRSTHAND AND IT’S -- YESTERDAY WAS MORE STRIKING THAN I’VE EVER
SEEN.
SEEN. >> WOW.
>> WOW. WE WANT TO GET TO THE POLITICAL
RAMIFICATIONS OF ALL OF THIS IN
JUST A MOMENT, BUT FIRST, THE
LEGALITIES.
LEGALITIES. DANNY SAVALAS, BARBARA McQUADE
AND GO
AND GO THROUGH EACH OF YOU.
JONATHAN TURLEY, SCALE OF ONE TO
TEN, HOW BAD IS THIS FOR THE
PRESIDENT AND WHAT ARE THE
POSSIBILITIES?
POSSIBILITIES? >> WELL, IT COULDN’T BE WORSE,
AND I HAVE TO SAY, I’M NOT AS
CONVINCED ABOUT THIS NEW
MORALITY PLAY FEATURING MICHAEL
COHEN.
COHEN. THIS IDEA THAT HE’S SUDDENLY
LIBERATED IN THE SENSE HE’S
GOING TO TELL THE TRUTH.
IT DOESN’T FIT WITH THE
INDICTMENT.
INDICTMENT. LOOK AT THE FIRST SIX COUNTS.
HE’S A FELON, AND HE HAS A
REPUTATION IN NEW YORK OF BEING
SOMETHING OF A THUG.
SO HE’S NOT THAT CREDIBLE OF A
WITNESS.
WITNESS. I MEAN, IF EVERYTHING THAT WAS
SAID YESTERDAY IS TRUE, THEN
MOST OF THE THINGS HE SAID FOR
THE ENTIRE YEAR BEFORE WERE
LIES.
LIES. AND SO THAT MEANS THAT --
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> -- HIS USE AS A WITNESS WILL
REQUIRE CORROBORATION.
REQUIRE CORROBORATION. HAVING SAID THAT, HE JUST DID
IMPLICATE THE PRESIDENT IN A
CRIME.
CRIME. THE PRESIDENT IS EFFECTIVELY AN
UNINDICTED CO-CONSPIRATOR, IF
YOU BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT WAS
IN THIS FILING.
THAT MAKES THIS CAMPAIGN FINANCE
CASE A DIFFICULT THING USUALLY
TO PROSECUTE, STRONGER THAN THE
JOHN EDWARDS CASE.
THEY DIDN’T HAVE A MICHAEL COHEN
WHO WOULD SAY, FIRST I KNEW I
WAS COMMITTING A CRIME.
SECOND, I GOOD IFDID IT AT THE B
OF DONALD TRUMP AND THIRD I’M
WILLING TO GIVE EVIDENCE AND
DETAILS HOW WE CARRIED THAT OUT.
>> YOU KNOW, I TEND TO AGREE
WHAT HE ADMITS TO IS APPALLING
AND THIS IS SOMETHING, BARBARA
McQUADE, HE ADMITS TO THESE
CRIMES OVER THE COURSE OF YEARS
AND YEARS, YET MICHAEL COHEN IS
IN DEEP.
IN DEEP. HE’S IN BIG TROUBLE.
CAN HE SAVE HIMSELF?
THROUGH THIS PROCESS?
IS THERE SOMETHING THAT HE CAN
GIVE THEM TO PERHAPS MITIGATE
WHAT HE’S FACING NOW AT THIS
POINT?
POINT? AND WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AS THE
POSSIBILITIES?
POSSIBILITIES? >> POTENTIALLY, YES.
EMILY REPORTED YESTERDAY THEY
JUST STARTED TALKING WITH
MICHAEL COHEN AND PROSECUTORS
LAST WEEK.
LAST WEEK. SO THE FIRST TASK IS LET’S GET
THIS PLEA DONE, AND SO THE
CONVERSATIONS I’M SURE RESULTED
IN THE CULMINATION OF THAT PLEA
AGREEMENT YESTERDAY, BUT IT
APPEARS THEY HAVE NOT YET HAD
TIME TO PROBE ALL OF HIS
KNOWLEDGE OF THE 17-YEAR
RELATIONSHIP HE’S HAD WITH
PRESIDENT TRUMP.
PRESIDENT TRUMP. I IMAGINE PART OF THAT REASON IS
IT WASN’T UNTIL THIS MONDAY THAT
THE JUDGE, RETIRED JUDGE SERVING
AS THE SPECIAL MASTER, COMPLETED
HER PRIVILEGE REVIEW OF ALL THE
ITEMS TAKEN IN THE SEARCH OF
MICHAEL COHEN’S OFFICE.
IT’S REALLY NOT UNTIL THE
PROSECUTORS HAVE THEIR ARMS
AROUND ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS
THEY’RE ABLE TO CONFRONT HIM AND
PROBE HIS KNOWLEDGE OF ALL OF
THOSE THINGS.
THOSE THINGS. MY GUESS IS, NOW IS THE TIME
THEY’LL SIT DOWN WITH HIM OVER A
SERIES OF DEBRIEFINGS AND TALK
ABOUT ALL OF THOSE THING LANNY
DAVIS MENTIONED INCLUDING THE
PRESIDENT’S KNOWLEDGE OF THE
HACKING AND ENCOURAGEMENT OF IT.
IF HE CAN DELIVER THAT KIND OF
INFORMATION AND IT CAN BE
CORROBORATED, REALLY DEVASTATING
FOR THE PRESIDENT.
I IMAGINE THAT’S COMING IN THE
COMING MONTHS.
COMING MONTHS. HE REALLY HAS UNTIL DECEMBER
WHEN SENTENCESING IS SCHEDULED
TO PROVIDE THAT INFORMATION AND
GET A REDUCTION IN THAT
SCIENTISTANTS RANGE OF 3 1/2 TO
5 YEARS, COULD BE DOWN TO
PROBATION.
PROBATION. HE HAS AN ADDITIONAL STATUTE TO
PROVIDE THAT CONTINUING
INFORMATION.
INFORMATION. THE START OF A COOPERATION WITH
MICHAEL COHEN.
MICHAEL COHEN. >> I HAVE TO JUMP IN, MIKA.
IT’S ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE AND I
WARN PEOPLE NOT TO ASSUME JUST
BECAUSE MICHAEL COHEN ENTERED
INTO A PLEA AGREEMENT WITHOUT A
COOPERATION AGREEMENT APPARENT
FROM ITS FACE.
HE STILL MAY BE PRESENTLY
COOPERATING, PLANNING TO
COOPERATE AND THE CRITICAL
INFORMATION, HE ONLY RECENTLY
STARTED TALKING TO PROSECUTORS.
PROSECUTORS NEED WEEKS MAYBE
EVEN MONTHS TO DEBRIEF A
DEFENDANT LIKE MICHAEL COHEN OR
A COOPERATING WITNESS BEFORE
THEY DECIDE TO COOPERATE HIM AND
VET HIM MAKING SURE HIS STORY IS
ACCURATE AND TRUTHFUL.
ONLY THEN WILL THEY EVEN
CONSIDER GRANTING THAT PRECIOUS
5K1.
5K1. FROM THIS POINT FORWARD
PROSECUTORS ARE VERY, VERY
CAUTIOUS PURCHASERS OF THE
TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL COHEN, AND
MIGHT BACK OUT OF THE DEAL AT
ANY TIME IF THEY DECIDE HE’S NOT
TRUTHFUL AND NOT GIVE HIM THE
BENEFIT OF HIS BARGAIN.
IT’S VERY IMPORTANT TO REALIZE
THAT HE MAY BE COOPERATING, AND
HE MAY COOPERATE IN THE FUTURE.
IT’S ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT
DEFENDANTS CAN COOPERATE EVEN
AFTER SENTENCING UNDER THE
RULES, AND IT’SALS IMPORTANT TO
KNOW THAT COOPERATION AGREEMENTS
ARE OFTEN NOT PUBLIC.
IT’S OFTEN THE CASE THAT EVEN AT
SENTENCING WE WILL ADDRESS A
DEFENDANT’S COOPERATION AT SIDE
BAR AWAY FROM OPEN COURT AND
AWAY FROM THE EARS OF ANYONE WHO
MIGHT HEAR BECAUSE IT’S TOO DOUK
DANGEROUS TO MAKE THESE KIND OF
THINGS PUBLIC AS A MATTER OF
ROUTINE.
ROUTINE. >> WOW.
>> WOW. WE’LL GET TO HOW HISTORY WILL
LOOK AT THIS IN A MOMENT.
FIRST, THE POLITICS REPORTERS
SHARED INSIDE THINKING OF THOSE
AROUND PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MICHAEL
SCHMIDT TWEETED WHEN COHEN RAID
WENT DOWN IT OPENED UP A BIG
SECOND FRONT IN TRUMP’S LEGAL
WARS.
WARS. TRUMP LAWYERS ALWAYS FEARED IT
MORE THAN MUELLER, BECAUSE THEY
HAD NO HANDLE ON HIS LEGAL
EXPOSURE AND THEY NEVER THOUGHT
THEY GOT STRAIGHT ANSWERS FROM
TRUMP ON THE EXTENT OF WHAT HE
DID WITH COHEN.
JOHN ROBERTS TWEETED, SOURCE
CLOSE TO DONALD TRUMP TELLS FOX
NEWS, REMEMBER, THE PRESIDENT
CANNOT BE INDICTED, WHILE MAGGIE
HABERMAN ADDED TRUMP’S FOLKS ARE
WORRIED ABOUT IMPEACHMENT MORE
THAN BEFORE.
THAN BEFORE. THE THINKING, TANGIBLE, NOT
THEORETICAL AND IT DIDN’T COME
FROM MUELLER.
FROM MUELLER. DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL HAPPEN,
BUT THIS HAS MOVED TO A
DIFFERENT STAGE IN THEIR MINDS,
AND WHAT ABOUT THE MINDS OF
LAWMAKERS ON CAPITOL HILL?
KASIE HUNT, IS THERE REACTION,
ARE PEOPLE GOING TO FINALLY STEP
UP, WHO WE’VE BEEN SURPRISED TO
HEAR THEM GO SO SILENT GIVEN ALL
THE DIFFERENT STAGES OF THIS
PRESIDENCY WHEN REPUBLICANS
COULD HAVE REALLY COME FORWARD
AND SAID, YOU KNOW WHAT?
NO.
NO. THIS IS WRONG.
>> MIKA, I ALMOST HESITATE TO
SAY THIS BUT I DID GET A TEXT
YESTERDAY EVENING FROM ONE
MEMBER OF CONGRESS WHO SIMPLY
CALMED IT A DUMPSTER FIRE.
A REPUBLICAN WHO SAID THAT THIS
IS KIND OF IN SOME WAYS
PARTIALLY WHAT THEY EXPECTED BUT
ALSO BEYOND WHAT ANYBODY THOUGHT
COULD NAP A SINGLE DAY OR EVEN I
THINK IT WAS THE SPAN OF AN
HOUR.
HOUR. MAYBE AN HOUR THAT THIS NEWS
CAME OUT.
CAME OUT. THERE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IN THESE
KIND OF BEHIND-THE-SCENES, YOU
KNOW, NEVER TRUMP CIRCLES THAT
STILL DO EXIST IN WASHINGTON.
THIS SENSE THAT, WELL, YOU KNOW,
MAYBE THE LEGAL SYSTEM WOULD
SOLVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY’S
TRUMP PROBLEM FOR THEM.
NOW WE ARE SO FAR PAST THAT.
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS
INEXTRICABLY LINKED TO DONALD
TRUMP.
TRUMP. THEY ESSENTIALLY MADE THEIR BED.
THE BASE OF THE PARTY IS WITH
THE PRESIDENT.
THE PRESIDENT. THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY WITH
THESE LAWMAKERS AND THAT PUTS
INCREDIBLE PRESSURE ON
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.
I KNOW JON MEACHAM TALKED ABOUT
THIS BEFORE AS THE HISTORIAN IN
THE ROOM.
THE ROOM. REMEMBER, WHAT SHIFTED THE
GROUND IN WATERGATE WAS
REPUBLICAN VOTERS WHO TURNED
AGAINST PRESIDENT NIXON.
THAT IN TURN PUT PRESSURE ON THE
REPUBLICAN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS,
WHO ULTIMATELY WERE THE ONES
THAT SWUNG THE PROCESS AGAINST
THE PRESIDENT.
THE PRESIDENT. SO REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS STILL
HAVE AN INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF
POWER, BUT IT IS NOT CLEAR TO ME
YET THEY WILL EXERCISE IT IN
OPPOSITION OF THIS PRESIDENT AND
POSSIBLE IT MAY TAKE MORE THAN
WHAT WE SAW YESTERDAY.
>> THAT WILL BE FASCINATING TO
WATCH.
WATCH. YOU KNOW, IT’S SO INTERESTING,
ELISE JORDAN, BECAUSE THE NEWS
LAST NIGHT SEEMED TO SWALLOW UP
TRUMP’S RALLY.
TRUMP’S RALLY. YOU’D WANT TO COUNTRY TO THE
RALLY TO SEE WHAT THE PRESIDENT
WAS SAYING IN REACTION TO
EVERYTHING, BUT EVERYTHING WAS
SO BIG THAT THEY KEPT CUTTING
AWAY, AT LEAST MOST OF THE
NETWORKS I WAS WATCHING, KEPT
CUTTING AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE
THERE WAS TOO MUCH IMPORTANT
NEWS.
NEWS. YET, THOUGH, ELISE, WHAT YOU SEE
THERE ARE LOTS OF TRUMP
SUPPORTERS SHOUTING, HOLLERING,
CHEERING FOR HIM, AND THE
QUESTION IS, THIS IS HIS BASE.
WILL THE BASE BE MOVED?
>> WELL, MIKA, THE SHORT ANSWER
IS, NO.
IS, NO. IT’S VERY BAKED IN AS OF NOW,
AND IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THAT
DONALD TRUMP IS INDEED A
SCUMBAG.
SCUMBAG. VOTERS KNOW THAT.
THEY DO NOT EXPECT HIM TO BE THE
KIND OF MAN WHO TREATS HIS WIFE
WITH ANY DECENCY AND DIGNITY,
AND THAT IS KNOWN, AND ISN’T
GOING TO NECESSARILY MOVE THE
MOST HARD-CORE VOTERS.
HOWEVER, I WOULD SAY THAT YOU
HAVE A LOT OF WOMEN VOTERS WHO
AREN’T EXACTLY HAPPY TO HAVE
EVER HAD TO VOTE FOR DONALD
TRUMP IN THE FIRST PLACE.
THEY JUST WERE NOT NECESSARILY
FANS OF HILLARY CLINTON AND
WHILE THEY MIGHT HAVE VOTED FOR
DONALD TRUMP, THIS ISN’T THE
KIND OF BEHAVIOR THAT MAKES THEM
EXCITED TO KEEP SUPPORTING HIS
PARTY.
PARTY. AND YOU LOOK AT THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY, BIG PICTURE, JUST HOW
THEY HAVE LOST COMPLETELY ANY
CREDIBILITY AS A MORAL FORCE FOR
VIRTUE AS THEY CONTINUE TO LIE
AND DENY THAT WHAT DONALD TRUMP
HAS DONE IS WRONG.
SO AS OF NOW, IT MIGHT JUST BE
POLITICAL CORRUPTION.
POLITICAL CORRUPTION. IT MIGHT BE CAMPAIGN CORRUPTION,
BUT YOU LOOK AT WHAT THERE IS TO
COME AND STILL LOOMING,
ESPECIALLY WITH MIKE FLYNN AND
WE STILL HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MIKE
FLYNN, WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.
WHAT HE TOLD MUELLER’S TEAM IN
ORDER TO GET SUCH A GREAT DEAL.
THERE’S SO MANY UNKNOWNS THAT
THIS IS REALLY JUST THE TIP OF
THE ICEBERG.
THE ICEBERG. >> JON MEACHAM, AT THIS STAGE IN
THE PRESIDENCY, WHAT’S THE
HISTORICAL PARALLEL AND IF THERE
ISN’T ONE, THAT’S FINE, BUT PUT
THIS IN CONTEXT AS TO EXACTLY
HOW BAD THIS DAY WAS FOR DONALD
TRUMP AND THIS WHITE HOUSE.
>> I THINK THE CLOSEST PARALLEL
IS, DOES GO BACK TO WATERGATE.
GOES BACK TO THE SUMMER OF 1973
WHEN THINGS, BE THE CHAIN OF
EVENTS, THEY BEGAN UNFOLDING
THAT ULTIMATELY SHOWED IN THE
SUMMER OF ’74 THAT NIXON HAD
DONE SOMETHING NOT UNLIKE WHAT
PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ACCUSED OF BY
HIS OWN LAWYER IN THE PLEA DEAL,
WHICH IS, NIXON WAS ON TAPE
ORCHESTRATING A COVER-UP USING
FEDERAL AGENCIES TO BLOCK ONE
ANOTHER TO TRY TO KEEP THE HEAT
AWAY FROM HIS OWN WHITE HOUSE’S
POLITICAL ESPIONAGE ARM.
AND ULTIMATELY WHAT BROKE THE
NIXON PRESIDENCY, AND THIS IS
IMPORTANT, I THINK, IS A
COMBINATION, REALLY, OF THREE
THINGS.
THINGS. ONE WAS, HIS OWN LAWYER TURNED
ON HIM.
ON HIM. SOUND FAMILIAR?
SOUND FAMILIAR? JOHN W. DEAN, WHITE HOUSE
COUNSEL.
COUNSEL. SECONDLY, THE REVELATION OF MORE
EVIDENCE THAN YOU CAN
POSSIBLY -- ONE COULD POSSIBLY
HAVE IMAGINED, WHICH WAS
ALEXANDER BUTTERFIELD REVEALING
THAT NIXON HAD IN ONE OF THE
MOST KA LOUSILY STUPID MANEUVERS
IN HISTORY HAD TAPED HIMSELF.
BESIDES THAT, MRS. LINCOLN, HOW
WAS THE PLAY?
RICHARD NIXON WOULD TAPE
HIMSELF.
HIMSELF. WE JUST DON’T KNOW IN TRUMP
WORLD WHAT POSSIBLE EVIDENCE
THERE COULD BE THAT, WHETHER
IT’S TAPES OR MEMOS OR
TESTIMONY.
TESTIMONY. WE JUST DON’T KNOW.
AND THIRD WAS THE FACT THAT HE
ACTUALLY WAS, IN FACT, GUILTY.
AND THERE WAS A BIT -- THERE WAS
A COMMON SENSE RECOGNITION OF
THIS AFTER THE SUPREME COURT
RULED IN LATE JULY OF 1974 THAT
HE HAD TO HAND OVER THE TAPES
AND HE WAS GONE WITHIN ABOUT TWO
WEEKS.
WEEKS. HERE’S ONE OF THE QUESTIONS THAT
SORT OF BRINGS THE POLITICAL AND
THE LEGAL TOGETHER, AND WE DON’T
KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS.
THERE IS THE LEGAL PROCESS, AND
AN OPEN QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER A
PRESIDENT, A SITTING PRESIDENT
CAN BE INDICTED AND TRIED.
THERE’S OPINION ON IT, BUT IT’S
VERY MIXES.
VERY MIXES. THE SUPREME COURT HAS NEVER
RULED ON THIS.
THE POLITICS OF IMPEACHMENT IS
VERY MUCH ABOUT THAT.
FROM ANDREW JOHNSON TO BILL
CLINTON, TO NIXON, THE NATURE OF
IMPEACHMENT IS THAT A HIGH CRIME
AND MISDEMEANOR IS REALLY
WHATEVER MAJORITY OF THE HOUSE
DECIDES IT IS AT ANY GIVEN
MOMENT.
MOMENT. IT’S A PHRASE OF GERALD FORD’S.
SO IMPEACHMENT IS A DIFFERENT
THING THAN THE INDICTMENT
QUESTION.
QUESTION. MY OWN BENT AND JONATHAN AND THE
OTHER WOS KNOW BETTER, IS THAT
THE QUESTION WHETHER YOU COULD
INDICT A SITTING PRESIDENT SEEMS
TO ME TO BE A MATTER THAT THE
SUPREME COURT MAY HAVE TO RULE
ON BEFORE THIS DRAMA ENTERS ITS
FIFTH ACT.
FIFTH ACT. >> ALL RIGHT.
WE NEED TO GET JONATHAN TURLEY
ON THAT AND WE WILL RIGHT AFTER
THE BREAK, AND WE HAVEN’T EVEN
GOTTEN TO PAUL MANAFORT.
EVERYONE STAY WITH US.
STILL AHEAD ON "MORNING JOE," IS
ONE TRUMP ASSOCIATE ADMITTED HIS
GUILT, ANOTHER WAS JUDGED FOR
HIS.
HIS. PAUL MANAFORT WAS CONVICTED BY A
JURY OF HIS PEERS FOR BANK AND
TAX FRAUD.
TAX FRAUD. WE’LL RUN THROUGH THAT CASE AND
GET TO ALL OF THE POLITICAL
IMPLICATIONS ON CAPITOL HILL.
YOU ARE WATCHING "MORNING JOE."
WE’LL BE RIGHT BACK.