"THE DAILY BEAST" SAM STEIN, RICHARD HAASS, AMAN MOYHELDIN,
EUGENE SCOTT.
EUGENE SCOTT. WHY DON’T WE START WITH THE
PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL ON
FOREIGN RELATIONS, RICHARD
HAASS.
HAASS. RICHARD, YOU SOMEHOW CLARIFIED
IN 140 CHAKT CANNERS OR 280
CHARACTERS, THE STATE OF THE
MIDDLE EAST RIGHT NOW AND,
UNFORTUNATELY -- AND THIS IS
REALLY UNFORTUNATE.
REALLY UNFORTUNATE. BUT UNFORTUNATELY THE TITLE OF
YOUR BOOK KEEPS GETTING MORE
RELEVANT BY THE DAY.
TALK ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST.
WITH DONALD TRUMP AND AMERICA IN
FULL RETREAT, WHAT DOES IT
MIDDLE EAST LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW?
>> WHAT WE’RE SEEING IN THE
MIDDLE EAST, JOE, IS ESSENTIALLY
A PERIOD WHERE WE USED TO HAVE
MORE INFLUENCE THAN ANYBODY ELSE
AND OTHERS THOUGHT ABOUT HOW
MIGHT THE UNITED STATES REACT,
WHAT MIGHT THE UNITED STATES DO
TO US IF WE WERE TO DO THIS.
WHAT’S ESSENTIALLY HAPPENED NOW
IS WE’VE LARGELY TAKEN OURSELVES
OUT OF THE MIX AND OTHERS ARE
FREE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT
WITHOUT DEFERENCE, WITHOUT
CONSIDERING AMERICAN ACTIONS.
SO WE SEE THE ISRAELIS ATTACKING
IRANIAN SITES IN SYRIA.
WE SEE THE RUSSIANS NOW, THE
MOST POWERFUL EXTERNAL ACTORS.
THEY’RE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE
TIES TO SAUDI ARABIA, TO IRAN,
THEY’RE TELLING US WHAT TO DO
WITH SAUDI ARABIA.
THEY PRETTY MUCH GOT THE TURKS
UNDER THEIR THUMB.
WE SEE TURKEY ABOUT TO INVADE
SYRIA, GOING AFTER THE SYRIAN
KURDS WHO ARE OR WERE OUR
BIGGEST PARTNERS AGAINST ISIS.
THE SAUDIS ARE PROSECUTING A WAR
IN YEMEN.
IN YEMEN. THAT IS A STRATEGIC AND
HUMANITARIAN NIGHTMARE.
HUMANITARIAN NIGHTMARE. IRAN IS BASICALLY AN IMPERIAL
COUNTRY TRYING TO INCREASE ITS
WAY AROUND THE REGION AND
ESSENTIALLY WE’VE BACKED OFF.
WE SAID WE DON’T NEED TO BE AN
ESSENTIAL PART OF IT ANY MORE.
WHAT THE PRESIDENT ARTICULATED
YESTERDAY WAS ESSENTIALLY A VERY
NARROW OR PINCHED VIEW OF
AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY BASED
ALMOST ENTIRELY ON HIS VIEW THAT
IF YOU SPEND A LOT OF MONEY ON
FOREIGN POLICY, IT’S MONEY
THROWN DOWN THE DRAIN.
SO THIS HAS NOW BECOME A
LABORATORY OF A POST AMERICAN
REGION.
REGION. AND I THINK WHAT WE’RE GOING TO
SEE IS INCREASING VIOLENCE, NO
RESPECT FOR HUMANITY OR FOR
HUMAN LIFE AND THE REST OF
THE -- AS BAD AS IT WILL BE IN
THE MIDDLE EAST, WHICH STILL
MATTERS BECAUSE OF ENERGY AND
TERRORIST, ISRAEL AND SO FORTH,
I’M WORRIED THAT OUR FRIENDS
AROUND THE WORLD ARE GOING TO
LOOK AT THIS AND THEY’RE GOING
TO SAY, IF IT COULD HAPPEN
THERE, ELEMENTS OF THIS COULD
HAPPEN HERE.
HAPPEN HERE. AND THEY ALSO ARE GOING TO BEGIN
TO PREPARE THEMSELVES FOR A TIME
WHEN THE UNITED STATES IS NO
LONGER RELIABLE.
LONGER RELIABLE. AND THAT WILL BE A VERY
DIFFERENT WORLD.
DIFFERENT WORLD. >> RICHARD, IN THE COMING
MONTHS, WE’RE GOING TO LEARN
COMPLETELY OR AS COMPLETELY AS
ROBERT MUELLER WAS ABLE TO
UNCOVER TIES BETWEEN DONALD
TRUMP, HIS CAMPAIGN, THE RUSSIAN
GOVERNMENT AND AGENTS OF RUSSIA.
I THINK IT’S FASCINATING AND
DISTURBING, WITHOUT KNOWING THE
FULL DETAILS OF WHAT ROBERT
MUELLER KNOWS AND WHAT THE
INVESTIGATORS KNOW, THAT FOR THE
FIRST TIME SINCE 1973, FOR THE
FIRST TIME SINCE 1973 RUSSIA HAS
BEEN ALLOWED TO PLAY A KEY ROLE
IN THE MIDDLE EAST.
AND THAT WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED
WITHOUT DONALD TRUMP’S
ACQUIESCENCE.
ACQUIESCENCE. AND NOW WITH THE RETREAT FROM
SYRIA, WITH THE VERY SMALL
FOOTPRINT BUT ONE THAT MOST
GENERALS I SPOKE WITH SAID WAS
ONE OF THE MOST EKFFECTSIVE
OPERATIONS WE’VE HAD PERSON FOR
PERSON IN RECENT U.S. HISTORY,
THAT JUST INCREASES RUSSIA’S
POWER ALL THE MORE, DOES IT NOT?
AND NOW THEY’RE DELIVERING
THREATS ON SAUDI ARABIA, A
COUNTRY THAT HAS CERTAINLY BEEN
IN OUR ZONE OF INTEREST FOR
DECADES.
DECADES. >> RUSSIA HAS BEEN THE GREATEST
STRATEGIC BENEFICIARY ALONG WITH
IRAN.
IRAN. THIS BEGAN UNDER THE PREVIOUS
OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WHEN WE
COULDN’T GET INVOLVED IN PLACES
LIKE SYRIA.
LIKE SYRIA. RUSSIA GOT INVOLVED.
NOW FOR PUTIN, IN SOME WAYS,
HE’S UNDONE.
HE’S UNDONE. I DON’T KNOW, WHAT, 25, 30 YEARS
OF POST COLD WAR HISTORY.
BUT HE HAS ESSENTIALLY FIGURED
OUT A WAY ON THE CHEAP FOR
RUSSIA TO RE-ENTER THE MIDDLE
EAST.
EAST. EVEN LIKE CERTAIN PEOPLE SPEND
MORE TIME TRAVELING TO SYRIA.
PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO ACT UPON
THEIR INTERESTS AS THEY SEE
THEM.
THEM. AND, AGAIN, PEOPLE ARE TAKING
OUT.
OUT. SO WHAT WE’RE DOING IS
ESSENTIALLY FORFEITING OUR
INFLUENCE AND IT’S INCREASING
DID DISARRAY IN THIS PART OF THE
WORLD.
WORLD. BUT, JOE, I’M WORRIED.
DON’T YOU THINK THE NORTH
KOREANS ARE LOOKING AT THIS?
HOW SOON IS IT BEFORE NORTH
KOREA WILL SAY WE’LL
DENUCLEARIZE AS SOON AS YOU
AMERICANS START MOVING YOUR
TROOPS OUT OF SOUTH KOREA.
HOW WILL THE EUROPEANS LOOK AT
THIS?
THIS? THIS IS GOING TO RAISE ISSUES
GLOBALLY ABOUT WHAT THE UNITED
STATES IS PREPARED TO DO.
FOREIGN POLICY IS NEVER JUST
ABOUT HOW MUCH CAPACITY YOU
HAVE.
HAVE. THE PRESIDENT SPENT A LOT OF
TIME YESTERDAY TALKING ABOUT OUR
BEAUTIFUL MILITARY AND HOW
POWERFUL WE ARE.
AND HE’S RIGHT, IT IS THAT
POWERFUL.
POWERFUL. BUT WHAT MATTERS IN FOREIGN
POLICY IS ALSO YOUR WILLINGNESS
TO USE THE POWER AND THE
CAPACITY YOU HAVE.
AND WHAT WE’RE INCREASINGLY
SEEING IS A UNITED STATES THAT
IS NOT WILLING TO DO THAT.
>> AND IT SENDS A MESSAGE.
AND YOU’RE EXACTLY RIGHT, NOT
JUST ACROSS TO THE MIDDLE EAST,
NOT JUST TO THE EGYPTIANS, NOT
JUST TO THE JORDANIANS AND OUR
LONG TIME ALLIES IN THE MIDDLE
EAST.
EAST. IT SENDS A MESSAGE ALL ACROSS
THE GLOBE.
THE GLOBE. AND YOU’RE RIGHT, THE NORTH
KOREANS ARE GOING TO TVEN TO
BACK --
BACK -- CONTINUE TO BACK OFF.
SAM STEIN, I WANT TO PLAY YOU
MORE FROM THE PRESIDENT TALKING
TO THE TROOPS THIS TIME ABOUT
DOMESTIC POLITICS.
DOMESTIC POLITICS. >> I DON’T KNOW IF YOU FOLKS ARE
AWARE OF WHAT’S HAPPENING.
WE WANT TO HAVE STRONG BOARDERS
IN THE UNITED STATES.
THE DEMOCRATS DON’T WANT TO LET
US HAVE STRONG BOARDERS.
HE GAVE ME AN IDEA, JUST LOOKING
AT THIS WARRIOR GROUP.
I THINK I’LL SAY I DON’T WANT
THE WALL AND THEN THEY’RE GOING
TO GIVE IT TO ME.
I FIGURED OUT THE SOLUTION.
FIRST LADY.
FIRST LADY. TELL NANCY PELOSI, I DON’T WANT
THE WALL.
THE WALL. OH, WE WANT THE WALL AND WE GET
THE WALL.
THE WALL. WHEN YOU THINK WHEN IT, YOU’RE
FIGHTING FOR BOARDERS IN OTHER
COUNTRIES.
COUNTRIES. AND THEY DON’T WANT TO FIGHT,
THE DEMOCRATS, FOR THE BORDER OF
OUR COUNTRY.
OUR COUNTRY. WE WANT REAL OFFENSE AND WE HAVE
NOT REAL DEFENSE AND THAT’S WHAT
WE’RE DOING.
WE’RE DOING. WE HAVE SECURED A RECORD
INCREASE TO OUR MILITARY BUDGET
AND WE ARE PURCHASING ALL OF
THIS GREAT EQUIPMENT.
$700 BILLION LAST YEAR.
$716 BILLION WRB, WITH A "B."
WE WERE FOUGHT VERY HARD BY THE
DEMOCRATS AND OTHERS, BUT I SAID
WE HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF OUR
MILITARY.
MILITARY. >> IT’S -- I REALLY DON’T KNOW
WHERE TO START, SAM.
FIRST OF ALL, SO MUCH FOR
POLITICS ENDING AT THE WATER’S
EDGE.
EDGE. PERHAPS IT HASN’T IN QUITE SOME
TIME, BUT YOU DON’T SEE
PRESIDENTS TALKING LIKE THAT.
AS I SAID AT THE BEGINNING,
REAGAN DIDN’T ATTACK THE
DEMOCRATIC SPEAKER AT THE
BRANDENBERG GATE.
BRANDENBERG GATE. IKE DIDN’T, YOU KNOW, ATTACK
DEMOCRATS WHEN HE WAS IN KOREA.
BUT HERE YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT
NOT ONLY ATTACKING DEMOCRATS IN
A WAY THAT’S UNNECESSARY, HE’S
ALSO LYING, TALKING ABOUT THE
BORDER, THAT DEMOCRATS DON’T
CARE ABOUT THE BOARDERS WHICH,
AGAIN, I HATE TO JUST KEEP
REPEATING THE TRUTH OVER AND
OVER AGAIN EVERY DAY, BECAUSE
YOU WOULD THINK PEOPLE WOULD GET
IT AFTER A WHILE, BUT SOME
ACTUALLY DON’T.
ACTUALLY DON’T. WE’VE HAD A NEGATIVE IMMIGRATION
FLOW GOING BACK INTO MEXICO FOR
YEARS.
YEARS. HISPANIC GROUPS WERE ANGRY AT
BARACK OBAMA FOR EIGHT YEARS FOR
BEING SO TOUGH ON THE BORDER.
THE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN LOW FOR
QUITE SOME TIME.
AGAIN, LONG BEFORE DONALD TRUMP
BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES.
STATES. HE’S LYING TO THOSE TROOPS LIKE
HE’S LYING TO PEOPLE THAT GO TO
THOSE RALLIES.
THOSE RALLIES. BUT THEY’RE A CAPTIVE AUDIENCE.
>> IT’S WEIRD TO SEE A PRESIDENT
BE THAT POLITICAL IN FRONT OF
OVERSEAS GATHERING OF TROOPS.
THERE HAVE BEEN INSTANCES WHERE
PRESIDENTS HAVE GONE OVERSEAS
AND MADE DISTINCTIONS ABOUT
FOREIGN POLICY MATTERS WITH
THEIR POLITICAL COMPETITORS.
BUT IN THIS CASE, YOU HAD DONALD
TRUMP MAKING PURELY DOMESTIC
POLITICAL POINTS AT AN OVERSEAS
TRIP.
TRIP. AND NOTABLY, THE FIRST TIME HE’S
ACTUALLY VISITED TROOPS OVERSEAS
WHICH MADE IT ALL THE MORE
REMARKABLE.
REMARKABLE. BUT WHAT STUCK OUT TO ME AND I
GUESS MAYBE SOME OTHER PEOPLE
HERE IS THAT HE’S TALKING
STRICTLY ABOUT A THREAT, A
SECURITY THREATS THAT IS
GATHERING AT OUR BORDER,
SOMETHING HE’S MATERIALIZED
HIMSELF AND AT THE SAME TIME
TALKING ABOUT HOW A SECURITY
THREAT HAS BEEN ELIMINATED IN
SYRIA.
SYRIA. THESE TWO THINGS DON’T REALLY
COEXIST.
COEXIST. ONE, THEY’RE THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
THE SECURITY THREAT IS GREATLY
OVERDRAMA ADVERTISED AT OUR
OWNER BORDER AND MILITARY
PERSONNEL SAY HE WAS
UNDERESTIMATING THE THREAT IN
SYRIA.
SYRIA. BUT THIS IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP
IS.
IS. THE ONE THING THAT I KEEP COMING
BACK DO IS THAT, YOU KNOW, HE’S
WILDLY INCONSISTENT.
WILDLY INCONSISTENT. HE OFTEN TELLS LIES.
BUT ON IN STUFF, ON FOREIGN
POLICY HE HAS SAID FROM THE
GET-GO THAT HE WANTS TO PULL
BACK, THAT HE BELIEVES AMERICA
SPENDS WAY TOO MUCH OVERSEAS,
THAT WE’RE OVEREXTENDSED, WE’RE
OVERINVOLVED AND HE WANTS TO
PULL BACK.
PULL BACK. FOR TWO YEARS, HE WAS STOPPED IN
DOING THAT BY THE PEOPLE THAT
HAD SURROUNDED HIM.
ONE OF HIS GREATEST EARLY
TRIUMPHS DURING THE FIRST YEAR
IN OFFICE WAS THE VERY LIMITED
BOMBING CAMPAIGN HE HAD IN SYRIA
WHERE HE TOOK UTAH THE RUNWAY OF
AN AIRPORT.
AN AIRPORT. AND THAT WAS DONE LARGELY
BECAUSE HE HAD PEOPLE AROUND HIM
SAYING, YOU HAVE TO DO THIS.
BUT IT’S VERY EVIDENT AND IT’S
BECOME CLEAR AS DAY NOW THAT HE
IS NOW FOLLOWING HIS INSTINCTS
ON THE FOREIGN POLICY STAGE.
AND I’M WITH RICHARD.
I DON’T THINK IT ENDS HERE.
HE HAS BEEN STOPPED IN PULLING
BACK OUR TROOP DEPLOYMENTS IN
SOUTH KOREA.
SOUTH KOREA. WHY DO WE GO WHEN THERE’S NO JIM
MATTIS TO STOP HIM FROM DOING
THAT?
THAT? IT’S AN INTERESTING AND FOR A
LOT OF PEOPLE SCARY PERIOD DOWN
THE ROAD.
THE ROAD. >> AND HE FOLLOWS HIS INGE R --
INSTINCTS, BUT THOSE ARE
FRIGHTENING INSTINCTS.
FRIGHTENING INSTINCTS. THIS IS A MAN WHO WANTS TO KRAU
TROOPS
TROOPS WITHDRAWAL TROOPS FROM SYRIA,
BUT HE WANTS TO SEND THREE TIMES
AS MANY TROOPS TO THE BORDER AND
KEEP THEM DOWN THERE FOR A
THREAT THAT MOST OF OUR HRTOMELA
SECURITY ANALYSTS SAY DOESN’T
EXIST.
EXIST. >> THAT’S RIGHT.
AND I THINK WHAT WE’VE SEEN IS A
PIVOT MOMENT IN THE TRUMP
PRESIDENCY WHERE HE’S JETSONNING
THE TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN AND
FOREIGN POLICY VOICES WHO THUS
FAR HAVE BEEN THE GUIDING LIGHTS
OF HIS PRESIDENCY ON THESE
FOREIGN POLICY MATTERS.
IN THIS CRITICISM THAT TRUMP IS
LEVELING IS NOT ONE THAT TRUMP
HIMSELF INVENTED.
HIMSELF INVENTED. THE CRITICISM OF THE WAY THAT
THE WARS IN IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN
HAVE DRAGGED ON FOR DECADES,
GETTING TO THE POINT WHERE
CHILDREN WHO WEREN’T BORN ON
9/11 ARE BASICALLY OLD ENOUGH TO
BE DEPLOYED IN AFGHANISTAN, AND
MANY FOLKS PARTICULARLY ON THE
LEFT HAVE BEEN CRITICAL FOR
YEARS AND YEARS NOW THAT IT’S
NOT SOMETHING WHERE WE’RE SEEING
A PAYOFF.
A PAYOFF. THAT ARGUMENT IS NOT ONE THAT
TRUMP IS PIONEERING.
BUT, OF COURSE, BRINGING THAT
ARGUMENT INTO THE REPUBLICAN
PARTY IS A HUGE SHIFT.
AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT
CHALLENGES THE BASIC BEDROCK OF
WHERE THE GOP IS ON THESE CORE
FOREIGN POLICY ISSUES.
THAT SAID, OF COURSE, THERE ARE
EMERGING PIECES OF EVIDENCE THAT
TRUMP WILL BE ABLE TO FIND
POTENTIALLY A NEW DEMOGRAPHIC OF
PEOPLE WHO DO FIND THIS ARGUMENT
COMPELLING.
COMPELLING. THE CENTER FOR STRATEGIC
INTERNATIONAL STUDIES RELEASED A
REPORT I BELIEVE A COUPLE OF
WEEKS AGO, MAYBE A COUPLE OF
MONTHS AGO, FINDING THAT THE
NUMBER OF SUNNI MILITANT
FIGHTERS WHO ARE CURRENTLY
ACTIVE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IN
THE WORLD HAS QUADRUPLED SINCE
9/11 AND THAT’S SOMETHING THAT
THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SORT OF
CRITICAL OF THESE WARS HAVE BEEN
POINTING TO.
POINTING TO. THAT SAID, OF COURSE, THE
QUESTION OF WHETHER OR NOT THE
UNITED STATES SHOULD EX EITHERDW
INFLUENCE, IT’S AN EXISTENTIAL
CHALLENGE TO THE WAY REPUBLICANS
THINK ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY AND
MORE BROADLY ABOUT AMERICAN
LEADERSHIP.
LEADERSHIP. >> MORE BROADLY ABOUT AMERICAN
LEADERSHIP, YOU’RE EXACTLY
RIGHT, BETSY.
RIGHT, BETSY. AND, UNFORTUNATELY, WE’RE SEEING
SOME REPUBLICANS AT LEAST --
WE’LL SEE WHAT THE ENTIRE PARTY
DOES -- BUT WE’VE SEEN
REPUBLICANS SELL OUT TO DONALD
TRUMP WHEN IT CAME TO DEFICIT
SPENDING, SELLING OUT THE TOO DO
TRUMP ON CORE VALUES TIME AND
TIME AGAIN.
TIME AGAIN. NOW COMES THE TEST TO SEE IF, AS
BETSY SAYS, REPUBLICANS WILL
ADOPT A POSITION THAT, WELL,
PEOPLE ON THE FAR LEFT HAVE
ADOPTED FOR SEVERAL YEARS, FOR
DECADES, IN FACT.
WE’LL CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION
ON THE OTHER SIDE AND I’LL BE
ASKING WHO DONALD TRUMP DID NOT
MEET WITH YESTERDAY AND THE
IMPLICATIONS OF THAT WHEN