welcome back to the david patten for joining me apart two previous guests on
the show
first we have former navy chaplain gordon james klensch made his website is
pray in jesus name dot ordered we also have wayne best in executive director
approved wins out you can find out more truth wins out dot for it
now i think the kind of set the stage uh...
chaplain nuvvu on the program a number of times discussed what you believe to
be
legitimate ways of getting rid of the sin of homosexuality something that you
believed to be a choice people make
way numerous times you've indicated that you believe so-called repaired therapies
and and quitting homosexuality or patently absurd and and scientifically
but of baseless let's start
with uh... with the kaplan uh... chaplain please give us a sense of your
view of this idea of
when someone becomes a or chooses to be homosexual and the ways that someone
might be able to rid themselves of that uh... lifestyle perfect
char well i'm a chapel and of course i'm
uh... ordained minister and a possible who believes in the bible who believes
in jesus christ
and it says in first john one and that if we will confess our sins
at a stable and justin he will pretty much but you also cleanses us
from all of the righteousness so there are
any number of sins for example in my own life at one time i was filled with uh...
jealousy or uh... alcoholism or deferred
character flaws that i had in my life in through personal repentance
etc healing when jesus moves into our hearts and
becomes our lord and savior's
he is able to save us from and forgive us of any of number of sins of perhaps
the least of which is homosexuality i don't think that's the worst sin by any
means okay but logistically before i get wayne before i give women a chance to
answer logistically that can be done through i mean you've talked about doing
day lesbian accesses and you believe that that is with genocide
when opposing a chaplain i had a list
insecure that she was very sincere she wanted to get rid of this personal flaw
in her own life and we prayed and she gave her life to jesus christ in when
the holy spirit moved into her and she gave permission we were able to
commander double to depart from are in there was an exercise of
after which she received healing and she began dating members of the opposite sex
so there was complete repentance complete healing universal
and forgiveness of sin in jesus christ wayne give us a sense of do you think
that these these excesses answer valid first of all and what's your reaction to
what did happen this thing
well first i like this one a say that those were
polje peachy but find just the way are you cannot railway ticket but i think
he's talking about
is sir
in people who go through
individuals like that come to me after work to get two pieces of the shattered
lives
they're not healed their harmed by such uh... deluded so-to-speak missus
interest yet and this is some kind of cole white czar
uh... notion that has nothing to do with religion but has something to uh...
radicalism and extremism there unfortunately
units please comes to people like me after the damage is done in such periods
you to let people sell email with the market and so you know
fine you're okay
and uh... it just breaks my heart to see how many people damaged in in of
religion
uh... for crackpot
programs like this before i give of course i will give the kaplan the
opportunity to respond but specifically
what do you think is happening wayne when the chaplain cites the story of
this lesbian who
after the actresses them uh... claims to no longer be a lesbian with the way how
do you respond to that
well clearly this lesbian
lead
and we want to believe there is something born with her that she was
broken when in fact there is nothing wrong with there and i think when you
have uh... we saw land at the sexism is pattern
deeper shane your instilling deeper shaming me with somebody feels so
horrible about themselves that will submit
cheeses quackery of the long-term this lesbian will come back at the close and
she's not already and she will condemn that action is incredibly damaging to
her psyche
unit and if she survives it mean mislead rides some people to suicide because
they feel so horrible about themselves the best thing people can do is just
accept themselves that they are
come out of the boston with a healthy rich it's the filling wife without all
this kind of religious fundamentalist
baggage that states damages so many people
kaplan got to go ahead
chart well on
there is forgiveness of sins in jesus christ as a removal of the shame that
was already there before i ever met
and she feels uh... lifted when she went to tears came down her face she felt
elevated and full of joy and love toward god private
for the first time in her life so there is hope and healing not only that but
there are scientific studies
that prove that repaired if therapy or
uh... which i don't practice by the way i'm not
a psychologist
the the scientific studies for example by robert spitzer confirm packet uh...
for about a loophole sexual orientation will in some individuals responsibilty
uh... he had a over two hundred respondents in both genders a hundred
forty three males and fifty seven females report changes from homosexual
to heterosexual orientation lasting five years or more
so there is hope in their is healing in these studies and uh... under the
teaching of doctor joseph nicolosi who's a respected psychologist reforms of the
north organization there is a retired padre of psychologist i just talked to
one david pickup in california who reports a sixty to seventy percent
healing rate for people who come to him to get rid of the shame in their lives
and their converted from homosexuality to heterosexuality by other means most
often they just come through faith in jesus christ i have a list of uh...
marsh and lots of and we've gotten quite a list from you already kaplan but i
want to give my investments has to respond to at least that means that for
the first two individuals you mention
well come on chat making it so easy for me here
realized doctor robert spitzer akitas can add a few weeks ago when renounces
study incident was bogus in fact i personally wanted his alice in princeton
new jersey interviewed and he told me to tell people like you to stop using his
study we have a video of him telling people like you to stop using my study
yet you're using his study i'll be happy to send you that seat no longer to store
his work are from a doctor nicolosi went to a strip mall collagen is completely
discredited he's somebody who believes for example that uh... straight people
can become date they suffer defeat or failure he's somebody up who believes
she should take people as i was three years old into repaired therapy of this
is somebody who is really discredited and
uh... every respected medical mental health organization says attempts to
change sexual orientation are powerful the american psychiatric association
even says it intends to change the media inside the
uh... depression self-destructive behavior as that certainly not the kind
of uh... results remark their mental health and that's exactly what you're
promoting
and i i i i can't imagine that you know i'm the david pickup we've yet to see a
single success story for mister pickups
it seems all he wants to do is market has products and sell you know there's a
lot workout they and other products but he certainly hasn't shown any success to
anybody so far also then his results are laughable that's but i found out i mean
gordon i want i want to go to you and ask you as a former navy chaplain as
somebody who has performed these gay actresses ans
could you take anybody could you take away invests in and performing arts this
is an worth he would no longer be gays that within your purview
well wayne would have to repent and he would have to consents
it's an activist free will two contracts with the devil
and it can also be enacted this free will
to renounce the devil unnecessary simple exercise that i think people in when
they want a lecture says that when they come to me for help ice a uh... pray
with me and repeat these words father in heaven irene ounce my sins and demons
i'd invite holiness and the holy spirit in if we would be willing to do that
then certainly he could find hope and healing been talking to the former
chaplain here
what do you think really is the net effect of these kinds of excesses of the
declined to do
i think they're incredibly devastating people what it does say reinforces shame
a lot of bilgi bt people grow up and very conservative background sir told
that they're sexually broken
but there's something wrong with them from the time they can remember from
that from childhood innovating field aspect and one of the lucky one of the
accepted in society by their friends and family members and they have somebody
like this makes a false promise
internals false
and promises the carrot of an extra system it's realistic that doesn't
meeting psychological parties fees for these excesses of the legal in your
opinion
tire cleaning up the masses of people like this reduced fat placards crackpot
ideas and indeed continuity ron
women their lower than in instilling because it broken down psychologically
and then one becomes whole began
by coming out of sponsored and we're speaking to a helping people liberty
fulfilling lives like this but it's so sad that they have to go themselves
processed foods
industrialist dysfunctional
mean-spirited uh... psychological religious views before they're able to
come out it's very unhealthy
chaplain last you seconds we have here do you believe that kilburn as young as
three should be subjected to so-called repaired if therapy i know you don't do
it but you believe that that they should be subjected to
well it's a free country everyone should be a lot parents should be allowed to
bring their children
for therapy but just to counter what wayne said other our psychological
studies just last week apart rigorous came out in the journal
of social science research in
wrote that s uh... the pet the children of parents who have at some point in
their life
at the same sex partner were more likely to be on welfare have a history of
depression less education and report it is free of sexual abuse
this is a professional psychological study just like the spencer study which
was never
countered with new research it was just politically
uh... repented of us posed by mr spitzer
these scientific studies
as you know more than a doc respectfully assignments children and christians
charter rescue
the children ever possible okay
uh... i think we're gonna have to leave it there we've been speaking with former
navy chaplain gordon james clinician at the website is pray in jesus name dot
org
and wayne bassinet executive director of truth wins out the website is truth wins
out dot org i have a sense that we're not going to be a table to agree on too
much here other than
we've just spent the last few minutes talking to each other but i thank you
both for participating event i hope we don't agree if that's the case i need to
go to assuring can get help
how they will take a break the and then after the war
palmitic confess your sins to me
unabated package sent to me