the on the phone
owner and nicholas 'cause off use the author of hugo chavez while politics
and the challenge to the u_s_ as well as revolution south america and the rise of
the new left welcome to the program nicholas
thank you for having so uh...
this say about uh... hugo chavez that
one of the most controversial figures
knots i mean obviously in the car the context of uh...
of broader uh... american politics but
from the left
there it is any there is always been a seems to me
he is
arty of opinion about this man
uh... one why do you think that is
well i think that populism
you know departed in latin america though is that rather polemical
it's uh... based on
the charismatic leadership of uh...
of um...
e you know usually followed her companion is going to break up the
political system rescue the country from economic political collapse
uh... and rallies the people again
throughout ill-defined foreign domestic enemies
and uh... and i think that uh... that at all politics have become very very
polarized by both pro and uh... and anti child of fortune's
idea i'd would like to pick out a kind of a third position which is not to come
in with
but i think that there is a place for a more recent
uh... reflective uh... perspective on unfathomable
which picnic
you which is that you know while admitting that uh... charter cuz
as accomplished a lot to refer to an economic policies
you know is nevertheless but will the critical of the popular style leadership
with i think
are there
you know you can rally people for short-term political gain true populism
and accomplish a lot
by i think that
uh... there's been a lot of top-down leadership
and there's been some bottom-up building garment from the bottom up but not
nearly enough of my personal view
several i think
that's where i i will be critical of of popular film because
it did you'd be relied too i think acceptable e on the top down model
so i think that there with this contradiction almost from the infection
with talent
between the top-down leadership
and then building empowerment from the bottom up tonight and my personal view
that wasn't enough attention on the latter
advances
this a little bit of a
of the history of child a
um... when he came to power and what they eg what was the context in which
uh... he came to power
in the late nineties
well i think
uh...
you know if americans were other aware at all of them as well as during the
nineteen thirty four they probably regard the country as a i'd kind of a
crafty party democracy similar to the u_s_
uh...
and reliable geo strategic partner exporting oil to the u_s_ from the
leading role exported to the u_s_
and i think challan essentially blue that
two-party system out of the water
and uh... created his own uh... gift to the party and uh...
amalgamated the left into his own populist banner
amps uh...
i think um... as a revolution as well as a lot of politics and i think to this
day
i think to psychologically speaking that's when people change now not going
to go back to you
uh... whether it's going to be very difficult for the right to uh... turn
the country back to the date of the nineteen nineties in the throes or a
light to the u_s_
uh... you know uh... whatever happens in effect selection takes effect will be
very difficult ethical logically to turn back
the uh... on the compass mentioned just a psychological makeup the venezuelan
people
uh... who have been really radicalized by the child eight years danny that way
that that psychological changes mean where where did it go
just
describe where it went from and where it went to because the it seems that there
was
you describe it as uh... there was a a state in in venezuela
essentially the people being left out uh...
the equation in some respects in is that accurate
well i think we're prob
more travel to complete this
uh... first-term special time for the twenty-first ranked
and to acquire go along with a rather vaguely defined term
it was um... i don't think childhood diverted uh... satisfactorily explain
how it is going to be different from cuban style social
and
so other or uh... a number of innovative measures that chavis instituted which
i would have liked to seeing
uh... defense even greater return even greater expand i'll give you a couple of
examples
very few people are aware that venezuela has one of the most vibrant uh...
economic growth but systems of economic cooperatives
in the world
and uh... i'm not saying that uh... economic operatives are perfect there
sometimes there's mismanagement there's corruption they there might be cronyism
nevertheless i think it's worth looking into economic cooperative to do in light
of the two thousand in financial collapse
uh... workers are looking for alternatives and there is a kind of a
crisis of the capitalist state in europe and also the united states right now so
so uh... in some ways benedetto chavitz would throw back in in terms of some of
his politics but
it in other words not respect i think he's quite innovative for example with
the economic cooperatives lica que but also with ellipticity communal councils
which
uh... were designed to empower local communities
and you had communities actually
taking charge of their own budget
which is actually pretty radical idea of who would be like no longer it uh...
city council
the state government or even the federal government deciding on the bench turned
out of the community itself decides and and that is inherently entirely radical
idea
and i think
if there were reviewed each other papers work of the council's but i was like to
human even greater keep coming up that
and then there are other ideas for example alternative currency if your
child is practice to craig
currently
uh... which never really got off the ground at fortune away but i think you
can print to pull the also
philosophically it is not a bad idea and in fact in some countries of the
management financial collapse like pain they're experimenting with these
alternative currency so
um... and then we could name other uh... go to other measures for example that
alva alliance with the reciprocal barter exchange outside of the
uh... that the typical corporate trade and all these are weren't a looking into
perhaps no one measures can be a silver bullet which
uh... social economic film always but
i think taken together in certain you know very profound ways childers uh...
challenge the underlying logic of a couple of state
unfortunately there were different constituencies within the child as
banner
uh... for example the managerial capitalist class
and i think thomas spent far too much time turnkey is
them or backwards own constituency if they're not level which nineteen five
eight two
um... the degree that he might have to want to what extent
um... can the
those type of
reforms
be replicated
and insofar is that they were
in many respects or their there was a lot more leeway there because you had
such a tremendous some such a tremendous asset in the uh... it being
having
blew the world's largest oil reserves moralist right i mean uh...
that doubt
that's a funding source it seems to me that is
that must've had
should uh... implications for what he could and could not do
well you had to be sure of he was able to put a lot and program open education
programs
which benefited moving to people
out through the oil largess and then also extended influence uh... within the
wider region by throwing around a lot of
development aid
uh... which i helped him cornered middlebury ke strategic allies ecuador
bolivia for example nicaragua cuba
and uh... i i i i don't know exactly what's gonna happen toasty of strategic
alliances now
uh... particularly if an opposition candidate uh... wins the next election
uh... i don't know maybe even lead to row that his successor might soften
towards the u_s_ so
so it is
if you work with the popular leadership
it um... is very much for quiet on the qualities of what one charismatic leader
and again if there's one thing that i'm critical of a cake child its promise of
groomed at successor earlier earning thirty thousand tech
and that it was just way too much emphasis in the charismatic leadership
and and then you to track the charismatic leader leader out of the
equation and you have these rather
ideologically eighteen croate movements they're trying to cobble together
different constituencies
and ended because medical interventions from the equation then we could just all
imploding so that's why i'm a little critical because i think it should have
deep in the revolution
two thousand six onward
uh... instead some of the more retrograde tendency you can't before
uh... and and i think that there was a historic opportunity that was kind of
lost
interesting and you know
it occurs to me that i don't know that there's ever been
a uh...
but i noticed in my lifetime
where the united states seems to
less
or and frankly less interest in some respects uh...
it's going on in
latin and central america better for works and i would die if you in some
instances it's it's probably both
but humble how much did that to mean how much
play into what child as was able to do and what he did
well i think you can you didn't have a george bush you probably wouldn't have
had in a good job and i think
uh... dead then there was a historic speech which i was came to united
nations in any talked about how the devil with bare
on the day before and he still so helpful for player
is the mideast
we just put a clip it's it's it's actually pretty funny
uh... yahoo you know and i think
uh... if if george bush about their power them too much i was probably would
not have had
you is much traction if you did
and i think precisely for that reason over the past couple of years since
obama got elected to company
uh... it's been a little bit what they will have a bit more difficult for child
lives because they just didn't have this rhetorical punching bag
even though i'm actually still critical of obama because but even though you
actually down the rhetoric on venezuela you have to look at what obama standard
practice in basically uh... you know it's a story that hasn't really have
been reported their uh... obama's inbound bilbao out the pentagon
under obama has been building up its network of military bases encircling all
that's left is confident south america
in colombia and chile
uh... and even maybe even tried to uh... install a military base in argentina
which actually got shelved because the popular opposition and so
supple but you know nevertheless yeah i do think it has been more difficult for
child is
uh... to regarding black youth rhetorical punching bag i also think
that
perhaps no bombs race played a factor i just think
maybe it was a little bit more difficult to opposed to a black president because
although uh... childers did much too
uh... uh... restore race relations and and he uh... he carried out important
reforms
towards marginalized communities invent relative to the offer of him as well and
indigenous people
until maybe it was in some ways psychologically a little bit more
difficult for
for chodo per child to oppose obama whose
though i think a little more popular a probably a lot more popular than bush
yes they have wider return
um... has the distinct advantage of not smelling of sulfur
tackles