BETSY DEVOS HAD A NUMBER OF SESSIONS WITH INDIVIDUALS WHO
WERE EITHER VICTIMIZED BY ACTUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS, OR PEOPLE WHO
SAID THEY WERE ACCUSED OF ñ PEOPLE WHO WERE VICTIMIZED BY
BEING ACCUSED OF CAMPUS SEXUAL ASSAULT.
THIS IS ALL PART OF ROLLING BACK SOME PROTECTIONS THAT WERE
PUT IN PLACE BY THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION.
EARLIER THIS WEEK, DEVOS ANGERED ADVOCATES FOR VICTIMS OF SEXUAL
ASSAULT BY AGREEING TO MEET WITH MEMBERS OF MEN'S RIGHTS GROUPS,
WHICH ARGUES THAT MEN ACCUSED OF SEXUAL ASSAULT ARE TREATED
UNFAIRLY BY COLLEGES UNDER THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION'S TITLE IX
GUIDANCE.
THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR MEN HAS A HISTORY OF INTIMIDATING
VICTIMS BY PUBLISHING IDENTITIES OF WOMEN WHO SAY THEY MADE
SURE THEY SAY MADE FALSE ACCUSATIONS.
THE OTHER GROUP THAT WAS THERE IS KNOWN AS SAVE, AND THE
SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER HAS ACTUALLY LISTED THEM AS A
MISOGYNISTIC ORGANIZATION, AND HONESTLY, I WAS REALLY CURIOUS
TO SEE WHAT KIND OF INTERACTION THEY HAD, AND WHAT THEY SHARED
WITH BETSY DEVOS, AND REFINERY 29 ACTUALLY HAD A REALLY GREAT
PIECE WHERE THEY PROFILED ONE OF THE MEN WHO CLAIMS THAT HE'S
BEEN FALSELY ACCUSED OF SEXUAL ASSAULT, BY HIS OWN FRAT
BROTHERS, AND SO YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT SITUATIONS LIKE THAT VERY
OFTEN, AND HE'S SAYING, I DON'T ACTUALLY WANT YOU GUYS TO GET
RID OF TITLE IX, OR THE PROTECTIONS THAT THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION PUT INTO PLACE, BUT WHAT HE DOES CALL FOR IS
INCREASING THE BURDEN OF PROOF THAT UNIVERSITIES NEED TO
HAVE IN ORDER TO FIND SOMEONE GUILTY.
NOW, KEEP IN MIND, THE WAY THAT UNIVERSITIES HANDLE IT IS
SEPARATE FROM THE WAY THAT CRIMINAL COURTS HANDLE IT, SO
THIS IS REALLY OVER WHETHER OR NOT A STUDENT SHOULD BE
EXPELLED OR REPRIMANDED, OR FACE ANY CONSEQUENCE IS FOR
ALLEGED SEXUAL ASSAULT.
THERE'S A LOT MORE, IT'S VERY COMPLEX, TWISTY-TURNEY
STORY, I WANT YOU GUYS TO JUMP IN.
IF BETSY DEVOS SAID, HEY LISTEN, OF COURSE WE HAVE TO TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, OF COURSE,
BUT SOME SMALL FRACTION OF CASES ARE FALSE ACCUSATIONS ñ AND I
SAY THAT BECAUSE IT IS A FACT, IT IS ABOUT 2 ñ 10% OF
ACCUSATIONS ARE FALSE, ACCORDING TO THE PEOPLE WHO KEEP STATS ON
IT ñ BUT IT EXISTS, SO LET ME GO MEET WITH ONE OF THESE GROUPS.
AND THEN I WOULD PICK THE GROUP THAT IS THE LEAST CRAZY.
THEY DON'T EXIST, UNFORTUNATELY.
I HEAR YOU ON THAT, THAT'S RIGHT.
SO, I WOULDN'T PICK ONE THAT WAS ON THE SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW
CENTER'S LIST OF GROUPS THAT ARE MISOGYNISTIC.
THE ONE THAT THE NATIONAL COALITION FOR MEN, I READ A
QUOTE FROM THEIR FOUNDER A FEW DAYS AGO ON THE SHOW WHEN SHE
WAS CONSIDERING DOING THESE MEETINGS, HE SAID THE RAY RICE
THING, I'M NOT VICTIM BLAMING, BUT YOU KNOW, SHE AGITATED
HIM, AND THAT'S WHY HE HIT HER.
WHAT?
IF YOU SAW THAT TAPE.
HE KNOCKED HER OUT WITH ONE PUNCH, AND COULDN'T CARE LESS.
WHAT DO YOU MEAN AGITATED HIM?
IT'S CLEAR VICTIM BLAMING.
THESE ARE BAD, BAD GUYS THAT SHE'S MEETING WITH, IF YOU WANT
TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE AND IDENTIFY THE SCOPE OF THE
PROBLEM, THAT MAKES SENSE, I WANT GUYS TO BE FALSELY ACCUSED
OF RAPE.
BUT THE PEOPLE YOU ARE MEETING WITH OUR TERRIBLE GUYS.
THE SENSE THAT I GOT FROM THE WAY THAT THIS ALL WENT DOWN WAS
THAT HER ASSUMPTION OF THIS IS THAT SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS ARE
50%, AND FALSELY ACCUSED ARE 50%, SO LET'S TREATED AS SUCH,
AND I'LL HAVE MY SESSION WITH THE VICTIMS, AND THOSE WHO WERE
FALSELY ACCUSED.
THE REALITY IS, NOBODY WANTS ANYBODY TO BE FALSELY ACCUSED,
IT'S COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND DEVASTATING FOR EVERYONE, BUT AT
THE SAME TIME YOU WANT TO ENSURE THAT YOU TACKLE A PROBLEM THAT
CONTINUES TO GROW ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AND THAT IS
ADMINISTRATORS BRUSHING THESE THINGS UNDER THE RUG, AND
NOT DEALING WITH THEM.
AND BY THE WAY, UNIVERSITIES ARE NOT COURTS; THEY ARE NOT
LOOKING FOR CRIMINALITY, OR TO CONVICT SOMEONE.
THAT'S FOR THE CRIMINAL COURT SYSTEM TO DECIDE.
WHEN IT COMES TO UNIVERSITIES, THEY HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER OR
NOT MAKE IT MAKE SENSE TO MOVE SOMEONE TO A DIFFERENT DORM OR
EXPEL SOMEONE, AND IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, ACCORDING TO
THE DATA, THE PERSON ACCUSED OF THE SEXUAL ASSAULT DOES NOT GET
MOVED TO ANOTHER DORM OR EXPELLED, THEY MIGHT GET
ASKED TO TAKE A COUNSELING CLASS, BUT THAT'S IT.
THE WASHINGTON POST LOOKED AT DATA AT OVER 100 UNIVERSITIES,
AND WHAT THEY FOUND WAS THAT, VERY OFTEN, OR MORE THAN OFTEN,
THEY ARE NOT EXPELLED FROM UNIVERSITIES; VERY OFTEN THEY
ARE TOLD TO TAKE THESE COUNSELING CLASSES.
BUT YEAH, LIKE, BUT THESE GROUPS WANT ñ THE MEN'S ACTIVIST GROUPS
ñ IS, THEY WANTED TO BE THE SAME BURDEN OF PROOF NECESSARY IN
CRIMINAL COURT.
SO, GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT, AND SO THE UNIVERSITIES
ARE ACTUALLY SAYING, THAT MAKES OUR JOB IMPOSSIBLE, BECAUSE
WE CAN'T PROVE THAT.
AND IT'S ALREADY TOUGH TO PROVE IN CRIMINAL CASES, WHICH WE ALSO
NEED YOU READJUST HOW WE CONCEPTUALIZE BURDEN OF PROOF
FOR CRIMINAL CASES, BUT BACK TO YOUR EARLIER POINT, ABOUT THIS
CONVERSATION, YOU CAN'T CENTER MEN IN A CONVERSATION WHERE MEN
ARE THE PRIMARY PERPETRATORS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT ON CAMPUS, AND I
THINK ALSO, YOU CAN HAVE MULTIPLE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT
SEXUAL ASSAULT.
2 THINGS CAN BE TRUE, THERE CAN BE FALSE ACCUSATIONS, AND THERE
CAN BE REAL SEXUAL ASSAULT, BUT TO GO FIRST, AND THEN TO FRAME
THESE VICTIMS AS EQUAL TO OTHER VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT I
THINK IS PROBLEMATIC.
SO, IT IT'S A TOUGH BALANCING ACT FOR UNIVERSITIES, AND IF I
WAS WORKING FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION I WOULD THINK,
LOOK, HOW DO I MAKE SURE THAT UNIVERSITIES DON'T BRUSH
THIS UNDER THE RUG?
AND THEY HAVE AN INCENTIVE TO, BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT THEIR
UNIVERSITY TO GET A BAD NAME, AND IF THERE'S A LOT OF ASSAULTS
REPORTED AT A UNIVERSITY THEY GET A BAD NAME, LESS PEOPLE
APPLY, IT AFFECTS THEIR FUNDING, ETC.
SO I HAVE TO STOP THAT PROBLEM, BECAUSE IF SOMEBODY IS SEXUALLY
ASSAULTED ON A COLLEGE CAMPUS, WE HAVE TO TAKE IT ENORMOUSLY
SERIOUSLY, AND MAKE SURE THAT WE GET JUSTICE FOR THAT, MAKE SURE
THAT THE VICTIM DOESN'T HAVE TO FACE THE PERSON WHO DID IT, ETC.
ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN THEY GO TO ACTUALLY ADJUDICATE THE CASE,
I THINK BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT IS TOO TOUGH IN THAT
STANDARD, ALTHOUGH I DON'T AGREE THAT IT IS TOO TOUGH IN THE
CRIMINAL CONTEXT, I THINK IT'S THE RIGHT STANDARD, BUT WE
CAN DISAGREE WITH THAT.
BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I DON'T WANT THE COLLEGE TO SAY,
YOU KNOW, IF THERE'S ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL THE GUY IS GONE.
NO, YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME REAL STANDARD, AND MAYBE IT'S THE
SAME STANDARD AS A CIVIL CASE, BY A PREPONDERANCE OF THE
EVIDENCE.
BECAUSE, WHEN YOU GO TO A CRIMINAL TRIAL, YOU ARE
TAKING SOMEBODY'S FREEDOM AWAY, AND ON A CASE LIKE RAPE,
YOU ARE GOING TO GO ON A SEX OFFENDER CASE, I MEAN THAT
IS AS SERIOUS AS YOU CAN POSSIBLY GET.
NOW, REMOVING SOMEBODY FROM COLLEGE, ENDING THEIR COLLEGE
CAREER, IS ALSO SERIOUS, BUT IT'S NOT TO THE SAME
DEGREE, AND IT'S A BALANCING ACT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO PROTECT
SEXUAL ASSAULT VICTIMS, AND WE HAVE THE STATS; THE
OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ACCUSE PEOPLE OF SEXUAL
ASSAULT, ACTUALLY HAPPENED, AND WE KNOW THAT THROUGH THE
CASES THAT ACTUALLY HAVE BEEN ADJUDICATED, ETC.
SO, IT'S NOT AN EASY BALANCING ACT, BUT YOU DON'T BALANCE IT
50-50, THAT'S JUST NOT THE REALITY OF WHAT IS
HAPPENING ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.
AND WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS, EVEN AS THEY ARE GIVING THIS
APPEARANCE OF TREATING THINGS AS IF THEY ARE 50-50, WHICH WE ALL
AGREE IS UNFAIR GIVEN THE STATS, BEHIND THE SCENES THEY
DON'T TREATED AS 50-50.
DEVOS'S TOP CIVIL RIGHTS CHIEF, CANDACE JACKSON, STIRRED OUTRAGE
WEDNESDAY WHEN HE TOLD THE NEW YORK TIMES THAT 90% OF
ACCUSATIONS FALL INTO THE CATEGORY OF, WE WERE BOTH DRUNK,
WE BROKE UP...
SHE LATER APOLOGIZED FOR THAT STATEMENT, BUT, I MEAN, YOU
APOLOGIZE BECAUSE YOU GET CRITICISM, YOU SAID SOMETHING
THAT YOU HONESTLY BELIEVED, AND THAT'S A LITTLE TROUBLESOME, SO.
IT'S NOT LIKE THOSE CASES DON'T EXIST.
WHEN I WAS GOING TO SCHOOL AT PENN, WE LITERALLY HAD ONE
OF THOSE CASES, WHERE SOMEBODY SAID, SINCE MONTHS LATER,
ONE OF THE NIGHT IN OUR RELATIONSHIP I DIDN'T WANT
TO HAVE SEX, BUT WE HAD SEX, AND HE DIDN'T KNOW IT, BUT I'M
GOING TO CALL IT RAPE NOW.
NOW, I DON'T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS, AND THAT WAS A LONG,
LONG TIME AGO, AND MAYBE SHE HAD A POINT, BUT FROM THE OUTSIDE IT
LOOKS LIKE, WHOA, SIX MONTHS LATER, AND THE GUY DIDN'T EVEN
KNOW IT.
SO IT'S NOT LIKE THOSE CASES DON'T EXIST, BUT FOR HER TO SAY
THAT 90% OF THE ACCUSATIONS FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY IS
UNBELIEVABLE, BUT THAT'S THEIR MINDSET, THAT'S THEIR
PERSPECTIVE, IT'S A LOT OF BS, THAT A LOT OF THESE SEXUAL
ASSAULT CASES DON'T ACTUALLY HAPPEN, WHICH IS IRONIC BECAUSE
CANDACE JACKSON IS ACTUALLY A SEXUAL ASSAULT SURVIVOR, BUT
HAVING NO EMPATHY SHE TURNS AROUND AND SAYS THAT EVERYONE
ELSE IS MAKING IT UP, EVEN THOUGH THE STATS INDICATE
IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE.
THEY ARE TELLING THE TRUTH 90 ñ 98% OF THE TIME.