BILL MOYER >>> BILL MOYERS HAS BEEN A
JOURNALIST FOR MORE THAN 50
YEARS AND CAME TO JOURNALISM
AFTER SERVING IN MULTIPLE ROLES
IN PRESIDENT LINDEN B. JOHNSON’S
ADMINISTRATION INCLUDING PRESS
SECRETARY.
SECRETARY. HE’S ONE OF THE FOREMOST
CHRONICLERS AND ABOUT TWO WEEKS
AGO AHEAD OF THE TRUMP
IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS MOYERS AND
ACULEEGE PUBLISHED A FULL PAGE
AD IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES"
CALLING ON HIS LONG TIME
EMPLOYER PBS TO TELEVISE THE
IMPEACHMENT HEARINGS IN PRIME
TIME BECAUSE THEY WANTED WORKING
AMERICANS TO BE ABLE TO WITNESS
IN FULL THE CASE AGAINST THE
PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.
JOINING ME NOW THE INCOMPARABLE
BILL MOYERS.
BILL MOYERS. GREAT TO SEE YOU.
WHY -- WHY DID YOU TAKE THAT AD
OUT?
OUT? WHY DO YOU THINK IT’S IMPORTANT
FOR PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO
ACTUALLY WATCH THE HEARINGS
THEMSELVES?
THEMSELVES? >> BECAUSE THEY’VE ONLY BEEN FOR
THIS ONE FOR IMPEACHMENT
HEARINGS.
HEARINGS. THEY’RE A POWERFUL COURSE IN
CIVIC EDUCATION.
CIVIC EDUCATION. IF YOU WATCHED THIS WEEK AS MY
WIFE AND I DID YOU REALLY SEE
WHY EMBASSIES WORK.
THAT’S WHY WE HAVE EMBASSIES.
YOU LOOK AT THOSE FIRST CLASS
CIVIL SERVANTS, THE FOREIGN
SERVICE OFFICERS AND YOU SEE WHY
WE HAVE EMBASSIES.
YOU SEE HOW THIS PRESIDENT HAS
MALIGNED THESE PEOPLE.
IF YOU JUST GET WHAT WE GOT IN
THE EVENING IN FIVE TO SIX
SEGMENTS YOU CAN’T SEE THE
ORGANIC PROCESS AS IT UNFOLDS,
AND TO SEE THAT IS TO SIT THERE
AND BE BOTH PROUD OF THE PEOPLE
TELLING THE TRUTH AND DEEPLY
WORRIED ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE
LYING.
LYING. >> IT’S FUNNY YOU SAY THAT
BECAUSE I HAD THAT SAME THOUGHT
WATCHING A FEW OF THESE
INDIVIDUALS WHOSE BASIC COMMAND
AND FLUIDITY WITH THE FACTS,
THERE’S ONE POINT KENT IS GOING
BACK AND FORTH, THEY JUST KNOW
THEY’RE BRIEF.
THEY’RE BRIEF. I THOUGHT FOR PEOPLE TO THINK
THESE ARE BUREAUCRATS, THE DEEP
STATE OR SOMETHING THIS IS
PRETTY REMARKABLE THING TO
WATCH.
WATCH. >> AND FOR A PRESIDENT TO -- AND
FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP TO
VIGOROUSLY DENIGRATE THEM TO
ALIGN THEM WITH GIULIANI LEADING
A SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST THESE
FINE PUBLIC SERVANTS IT’S
DISGUSTING, IT’S ABOMINABLE.
>> YOU COVERED WATERGATE.
YOU COVERED BILL CLINTON.
YOU ARE NOW WATCHING THIS.
WHAT IS YOUR GENERAL SENSE OF
WHAT THE FUNDAMENTAL SHIFTS IN
AMERICAN POLITICS AND MEDIA ARE
BETWEEN THE WATERGATE ERA
THROUGH CLINTON TO NOW?
>> THE WATERGATE STORY STARTED
IN THE SUMMER OF ’72 AND RAN
UNTIL NIXON RESIGNED IN ’74.
IT WAS A LONG RUNNING STORY WITH
ONE REVELATION AFTER ANOTHER.
THERE WAS A SMOKING GUN.
THAT WAS THE MISSING TAPE THAT
NIXON FIRST TO RELEASE THE
TRANSCRIPT OF AND THEN WAS
REQUIRED BY THE SUPREME COURT TO
RELEASE THE WHOLE TAPE.
AND I WONDER, CHRIS, I JUST
WONDER IF THERE ISN’T A TAPE OF
THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN THE
PRESIDENTS ZELENSKY AND TRUMP
THAT ISN’T BACK THERE SOMEWHERE
IN THAT CLOSET.
IT TOOK LONGER TO GET AT THE
STORY OF WATERGATE.
THERE WAS A SMOKING GUN, AS I
SAID.
SAID. THERE ARE SMOKING BRICKS HERE
CAREFULLY PUT INTO PLACE BY
THESE -- THE PEOPLE WHO
TESTIFIED, THESE FOREIGN SERVICE
OFFICERS WHO TESTIFIED THIS
WEEK.
WEEK. ONE BRICK AT A TIME SO THAT
YOU’RE BEGINNING TO SEE THE
PATTERN OF WHAT HE DID.
WHEREAS IT TOOK SOME SUDDEN
RELEASE, IT TOOK SOME CRISIS IN
THE WATERGATE HEARING FOR THE
TRUTH TO COME OUT.
>> YOU KNOW, ONE THING WHEN I’VE
GONE BACK AND DOING A LOT OF
READING ABOUT WATERGATE NOW AND
PARTLY SORT OF CONTEXT OF THIS
AND DOING READING ABOUT ANDREW
JOHNSON’S IMPEACHMENT, BUT I
THINK IN THE WATERGATE CONTEXT
THE WAY YOU GET TAUGHT HISTORY
IS IT WAS BEFORE ORDAINED HE
WOULD FALL.
WOULD FALL. OF COURSE IN A KIND OF GREEK
DRAMA WAY FATE WOULD CATCH UP TO
HIM.
HIM. BUT YOU GO BACK AND GO IF HE
HADN’T TAPED HIMSELF THERE’S A
LOT OF WAYS IT WOULD HAVE GONE
THAT NIXON COULD HAVE SURVIVED.
>> FOR ONE THING HE NEVER
ANNOUNCED HIS CRIMES.
TRUMP ANNOUNCED HIS IN PUBLIC.
>> REPEATEDLY.
>> REPEATEDLY. >> BUT THERE IS A SIMILARITY,
AND IT IS THIS.
REPUBLICANS DID NOT RUSH TO GET
RID OF NIXON.
IT WASN’T -- I THINK IT WAS THE
FEW MONTHS BEFORE THE ACTUAL
TRIAL THAT THE FIRST REPUBLICAN
REPRESENTATIVE SAID I’M
CONVINCED.
CONVINCED. BUT REPUBLICANS IN THE CONGRESS
DID NOT WANT NIXON TO GO.
AND IN FACT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY
WAS POLLED JUST BEFORE THE VOTE
AND 31% OF THEM SAID, YES, HE
SHOULD GO.
SHOULD GO. BUT TWO THIRDS OF THEM SAID NO,
HE SHOULDN’T.
HE SHOULDN’T. AND THAT’S BASICALLY WHERE THE
REPUBLICAN PARTY IS TODAY.
PARTISANSHIP IS A GREAT
INSURANCE POLICY AGAINST
IMPEACHMENT.
IMPEACHMENT. IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY MEMBERS
DON’T FOLD, DON’T SEE THE LIGHT,
VOTE AGAINST TRUMP, I DOUBT
THERE WILL BE AN IMPEACHMENT.
>> I THINK THERE’S AN INSTINCT
ALWAYS I THINK WITH TRUMP
BECAUSE HE’S SO STRANGE IN MANY
WAYS LIKE NEVER BEFORE -- IF YOU
GO BACK AND LOOK AT IMPEACHMENT,
IMPEACHMENT IS ALWAYS PARTISAN
IN THE HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC.
THE BIG EXCEPTION WAS NIXON WHEN
GOLDWATER GOES AND TELLS HIM YOU
DON’T HAVE THE VOTES.
IS IT STRONGER NOW?
POLITICIANS -- POLITICAL
SCIENTISTS TALK ABOUT
POLARIZATION, THE INTENSITY OF
THAT AND THE WAY THAT CAN FEED.
DO YOU SEE THAT?
>> OF COURSE I’VE SEEN EXTREME
PARTISANSHIP DOMINATE POLITICS
IN THE LAST 20 YEARS BEGINNING
WITH AROUND NEWT GINGRICH AND
NOT TO BE DEFEATED BUT TO BE
DESTROYED, AND THAT HAS BEEN
CONTAGIOUS AND YOU HAVE IT NOW
AND YOU SEE IT IN THE TRUMP
TESTIMONY AND IN THE TRUMP
HEARINGS.
HEARINGS. IF THE REPUBLICANS HANG TOUGH AS
THEY DID, IF THEY CLING TO THEIR
FALSE DEFENSE OF THE PRESIDENT
IGNORING THE EVIDENCE AND LIVE
WITH THEIR LIVES, IT’S GOING TO
BE A LONG DRAWN OUT FIGHT.
>> THE OTHER THING THAT’S
CHANGED OF COURSE SO MUCH IS THE
WAY THE MEDIA WORKS.
AND I SHOULD SAY THE PEOPLE
WATCHING THIS RIGHT NOW, WE HAVE
PEOPLE ACROSS THE IDEOLOGICAL
SPECTRUM WHO WATCH OUR SHOW.
THAT SAID THE MEDIA IS QUITE
BALKANIZED RIGHT NOW.
NOW YOU HAVE A MILLION DIFFERENT
WAYS IN WHICH INFORMATION GETS
TO PEOPLE.
TO PEOPLE. THROUGH FACEBOOK, THROUGH FOX
NEWS AND WHICH.
YOU CAN BASICALLY GET A KIND OF
PREDIGESTED VERSION THAT
ESSENTIALLY ASSEMBLES THE FACTS
OR EVEN FACT AND FICTION
TOGETHER TO ENSURE YOU NEVER SEE
THE WHOLE PICTURE.
>> THAT IS TRUMP’S GREAT
STRENGTH.
STRENGTH. HE WANTS TO OWN REALITY.
HE’S WHAT SICHIPSYCHIATRISTS CAL
SALIPSIS.
SALIPSIS. HE’S CREATED A REALITY IN WHICH
THE MEDIA SHARES HIS PHILOSOPHY
IN WHICH IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT
YOU THINK IT IS, WHAT THE TRUTH
IS, WE CAN CREATE A REALITY.
THAT BEGAN IN THE CLINTON
ADMINISTRATION WHEN THE FIRST
PARTISAN RIGHT WING MEDIA HATED
BILL CLINTON AND TURNED
EVERYTHING THAT WAS SAID AND
PRESENTED AS EVIDENCE AGAINST
HIM.
HIM. AND HE WAS ACCUSED OF PERJURY
AND ACCUSED OF OBSTRUCTION OF
JUSTICE AND ACQUITTED IN THE
SENTENCE OF BOTH THEM.
>> ALTHOUGH THE THING I ALWAYS
THINK ABOUT WITH CLINTON AND I
TRY TO SAY THIS TO CONSERVATIVES
WHO I’VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH
IS THAT JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE
OUT TO GET YOU DOESN’T MEAN YOU
DIDN’T DO THE WRONG THING.
AND WITH BILL CLINTON THAT WAS
IT CASE.
IT CASE. IT WAS THE CASE THERE WAS A PLOT
TO BRING HIM DOWN AND HE
DEFINITELY SHOULDN’T HAVE DONE
THAT, AND I’M CURIOUS WHETHER WE
CAN GET TO THAT POINT HERE.
EVEN WITH WHAT WILL HURD SAID
THE OTHER DAY WHICH WAS I DON’T
THINK THIS IS RIGHT BUT IT’S NOT
IMPEACHABLE.
IMPEACHABLE. IT SEEMS THE DEMANDS OF THE
PRESIDENT IS SO TOTAL NO ONE CAN
SAY THE OBVIOUS THING THAT THIS
IS WRONG, YOU SHOULDN’T HAVE
DONE THAT.
DONE THAT. >> A FEW.
>> A FEW. >> DO YOU HAVE -- I GET
DISPIRITED SOMETIMES BECAUSE I
FEEL SOMETIMES THERE’S A KNOT
AND MY JOB IS PARTLY PULLING ON
IT TO MAKE IT UNDO.
LIKE I’M APPLYING FORCE IN THE
WRONG DIRECTION.
WRONG DIRECTION. AND I WONDER HOW THE KNOT GETS
UNDONE PARTICULARLY AS I WATCH
THIS IMPEACHMENT.
THIS IMPEACHMENT. HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT SOME
OF THE WORST PATHOLOGIES WE HAVE
IN OUR COUNTRY RIGHT NOW CAN’T
BE UNDONE?
BE UNDONE? >> I THINK THEY ARE HERE UNTIL
THERE’S SOME TRANSFORMATION IN
THE AMERICAN CULTURE AND
AMERICAN POLITICS UNTIL ENOUGH
PEOPLE -- I LISTENED TO ROBERT
J. LIFTEN, ONE OF THE GREAT
PSYCHOLOGISTS OF OUR TIME WHO
WROTE BOOKS ABOUT THE SURVIVORS
OF HIROSHIMA, HITLERS NAZIS,
PEOPLE WHO EXPERIENCED TRAUMA.
AND HE SAYS THERE’S ONLY ONE WAY
TO GET OUT OF THIS AND THAT IS
TO DO WHAT -- WHO HAD BEEN THE
CHAMPION OF FREEDOM AGAINST THE
COMMUNISTS IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA
SAID YOU HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE
TRUTH, EVERYONE HAS TO LIVE WITH
THE TRUTH AND YOU HAVE TO ATTACH
YOURSELF TO ORGANIZATIONS THAT
ARE TRYING TO SERVE THE TRUTH.
IF ENOUGH OF US DO THAT WE MIGHT
YET SEE OUR REPUBLIC SAFE.
REMEMBER WHAT -- SAID THAT THE
SHIP OF DEMOCRACY LIKE ANY GREAT
SHIP AT SEA SINK FROM THE MUTINY
OF THOSE ONBOARD.
THROW THEM OUT AND START PUTTING
THE SHIP OF DEMOCRACY IN THE
PATH OF THE TRUTH OF OUR
EXPERIENCE AND WE’LL GET THROUGH