It's The Real News Network I'm Sharmini Peries coming to you from Baltimore.
Venezuelan authorities arrested Major General Miguel Rodriguez Torres last week, accusing
him of fomenting unrest within the military. Rodriguez Torres was the head of Venezuela's
Secret Service under President Chavez and also spent some time as interior minister
under President Maduro. The arrest has rattled critical Chavistas in Venezuela because Rodríguez
Torres was generally seen as a staunch defender of the Bolivarian Revolution who has only
recently begun to criticize Maduro's management of the economy and of the political situation.
Joining me now to take a closer look at the arrest is Lucas Koerner. Lucas is staff writer
for the website VenezuelAnalysis.com and is a masters student at Venezuela's Institute
for Advanced Studies. He joins us today from Caracas, Venezuela. Thanks so much for joining
us, Lucas.
Thanks for having me on.
All right, Lucas, Miguel Rodriguez Torres spent time in jail with President Chavez for
participating in a civic military coup against former President Carlos Andres Perez. He was
in prison with Chavez. He served in Chavez's administration and in Maduro's administration.
So what more can you tell us about him and this sudden departure with Maduro and the
Chavismo?
Yes, I mean, he has a long trajectory within the government, within Chavismo. I think that
we have to see this current rift as something that's been building over the past year, that
he, as you mentioned, served after the death of Chavez as minister of justice and interior
until he was dismissed following the controversial Quinta Crespo massacre, in which five members
of revolutionary armed organizations in central Caracas were killed by the special investigative
police under the command of Rodriguez Torres at that time, which generated a public outcry
in which Rodriguez Torres defended the actions of the police, calling those who were killed
criminals, and subsequently this led to, made the protests of of important figures on the
left, led to the dismissal of Rodriguez Torres by Maduro. And he ceased to be directly part
of the government and it did not occupy such a high profile position.
However, over the last year, over the last two years, he has become, as you mentioned,
increasingly critical of the government. First, you know, really criticizing the government's
you know erroneous economic policies in numerous areas in his view, but also taking a much
more strident political stance, particularly following the announcement of the National
Constituent Assembly on May 1st of 2017 as basically President Maduro using his constitutional
powers to convene this citizens assembly to redress Venezuela's 1999 Constitution. And
he came out and public opposed this move alongside the attorney general at that time, Luisa Ortega
Diaz, and as of last year started his own political party, the Broad Defiance Movement.
However, it's important to note that this movement has, both Rodrigues Torres and his
movement have, along with Luisa Ortega in that respect, have moved closer to elements
of the Venezuelan opposition, including a number of right wing parties that in August
of 2017 he appeared at a conference alongside Julio Jorge is the former head of the national
constituent assembly, as well as the former two time opposition presidential candidate
Henrique Capriles.
And you know this particular, along with the attorney general, his new movement abroad,
the Broad Defiance Movement, has joined the new coalition started by the right wing parties
of the opposition called the Broad Front for a Free Venezuela, which includes, as I mentioned,
All of these other parties of the Democratic Unity roundtable, as well as its important
conservative civil society groups like the Venezuelan Chamber of Commerce, which participated
in the 2002 coup, as well as certain student groups , the Catholic Church, evangelical
churches, et cetera.
So yeah, absolutely. He is seen by many within the more critical segments of Chavismo as
an alternative, as a critic of the government. But he's also a very controversial figure
for many on the left, including many on the left who are themselves critical of the government.
All right, Lucas. So it's one thing to oppose the Maduro government and the way in which
he is conducting government business or handling the economy or the politics in the country.
But it's another thing to actually be coming from the left, being a Chavista government
minister in the past appointed by Maduro and appointed by Chavez, and then joining the
opposition. And what he's being accused of here is somewhat amounting to treason. Do
we know any more about his arrest and what he's exactly accused of, and is there any
evidence?
According to Venezuela's communications ministry, Rodriguez Torres is being accused of conspiracy
against the constitution, as well as "threatening the monolithic unity of Venezuela's armed
forces."
Now, there are no public charges have been formally presented against the former major
general, but the major implication, at least from what communication minister Jorge Rodriguez
has said, is that he had prior contacts with the CIA or maintained contacts with foreign
intelligence outfits which, you know, Rodríguez Torres admits to. But he says that that he
did this on the orders of Chavez, who saw it necessary to maintain open channels with
these foreign intelligence agencies in the case of kind of a conflict or a breakdown
of formal diplomatic relationships.
So there definitely, we have not seen any real hard evidence or any formal charges,
so we have to wait until we see that evidence to really come to a conclusion regarding the
legitimacy of the case against the former minister.
And this contact with the CIA, which is perhaps the most contentious charges against him,
and he argues that it was because President Chavez had asked him to. But he's no longer
serving President Chavez. Nor is he serving the Maduro government. So then do we know
why he's meeting with the CIA, and were those meetings recent?
We have no, I have not seen any public evidence with regard to that. There was a a supposed
document that was circulated by the government that claimed that he was an agent of the DEA,
the Drug Enforcement Agency of the United States, that he was being paid, you know,
a certain amount of money to pass sensitive intelligence to them. However, I have reviewed
this document and the supposed English version of it. And I found that it contains certain
spelling errors and certain language which is inconsistent with an official document
from the United States government, so I don't think that that's a particularly strong case
against him in any way.
Lucas, it's one thing to critique the government in power, and many people have critiqued Maduro
for the way in which he has handled the economy and the politics in Venezuela. But it's another
thing to join the opposition. It's another thing to appear with the opposition. And there
has been the falling outs with Maduro, for example. We have heard Rafael Ramirez, The
former oil minister in Venezuela, who recently resigned. And he was appointed, I believe,
To the United Nations as the ambassador there when he resigned. So controversies aren't
out of the ordinary. There's been other people who left the Maduro government.
But I think in terms of Miguel Rodriguez Torres, particularly given that he was former intelligence
and that he's also accused of plotting a coup, perhaps, against Maduro so there might be
some legitimate reasons for what Maduro did here, put this in context for us.
Absolutely. I think we need to view the arrest of Miguel Rodriguez Torres within the broader
context of the crisis of hegemony within the Venezuelan state since the death of Chavez.
Chavez was this larger than life figure who alone was capable of uniting the multiplicity
of different warring factions and interest groups that, you know, comprised Chavismo
as a bloc, and particularly the ruling Socialist Party, and the government in general. And
most recently we saw you know Rafael Ramirez, a former oil minister, who is now under investigation
for corruption, and he publicly broke with the government in December and called for
challenging Maduro in presidential primaries.
Likewise, Luisa Ortega, you know, broke with the government over the national constituent
assembly, and ultimately herself came under investigation for corruption. And now Rodriguez
Torres. And the clear issue with all these cases is that there is definitely, on the
one hand, the government, all of these figures have or have had presidential ambitions in
one way or another, explicitly in the case of Ramirez and Rodriguez Torres, who himself
has been on presidential campaign for at least a year, if not two years. Ortega, definitely
there was a lot of speculation that she would know run for president in some way or another.
So there definitely is , the government looks to these figures definitely as a direct challenge
to Maduro who is recognized by the bulk of Chavismo as the leader of the Bolivarian process
for now and for the next six years, including the left, the critical elements of the left
within Venezuela, the Communist Party, the homeland for all parties have signed agreements
with the [passu]. You know, specifying very important revolutionary conditions for backing
Maduro. And they have backed Maduro. There has not been a rupture between the left and
Maduro yet.
Many of these figures like Luisa Ortega and now Rodriguez Torres have openly broken with
the government. And you know, definitely there's a question of the political challenge to Maduro
and the Bolivarian process. And then there's the other question of, well, are these people
really guilty of what they're being accused of? In the case of Rodriguez Torres, is he
guilty of conspiracy? That remains to be seen.
In the case of Rafael Ramirez there definitely was immense corruption of PDVSA, we don't
know if he was necessarily responsible for it. But that's clearly, you know, to document
these things have been denounced by the left. In the case of Ortega, Luisa Ortega, you know,
there's been, people have been denouncing many of these figures on the left for a long
time for a whole range of activities, including Rodriguez Torres, and this should be kind
of taken in in our understanding of this figure.
All right, Lucas, Venezuela continues to be an unraveling, tumultuous situation. I thank
you so much for joining us, and I'm sure we'll be back to you very soon, but thanks for joining
us today.
Thanks for having me, Sharmini.
And thank you for joining us on The Real News Network.