JESSICA DESVARIEUX: Welcome to the Real News Network. I'm Jessica Desvarieux in Baltimore.
The African continent was shaken by a series of terrorist attacks this week. In Mali a
group of gunmen took over a luxury hotel, killing at least a dozen people and holding
hundreds hostage. This developing story has yet to confirm who is responsible for the
attacks. But in Nigeria, Boko Haram has claimed responsibility for suicide bombings in the
cities of Yola and Kano, and have claimed the lives of at least 49 people. The news
comes after a report from the Institute of Economics and Peace that states that Boko
Haram has killed more people in 2014 than ISIS, a terrorist organization that Boko Haram
has pledged allegiance to. But what is fueling all of this terrorism in Africa, in particular
Nigeria?
Now joining us to answer this question from Cote d'Ivoire is our guest, Baba Aye. Baba
is the national convener of United Action for Democracy, the largest rights-based coalition
in Nigeria. Thank you so much for joining us, Baba.
BABA AYE: Thank you so much, Jessica.
DESVARIEUX: So Baba, here at the Real News we've really tried to point out how the Islamic
State is fundamentally a product of U.S. policy in the Middle East. We were wondering if you
could do the same regarding the genesis of Boko Haram. So let's begin by looking at this
important contradiction between the fact that Nigeria is the biggest producer of oil in
Africa, and the fact that over 60 percent of its population lives in poverty. How can
you link terrorism to poverty?
AYE: Definitely terrorism in Nigeria, Boko Haram [inaud.] has a lot to do with poverty
in Nigeria [inaud.] and particularly in the northeastern part of the country we have,
Boko Haram has as its bastion. Like you said, almost 70 percent of Nigerians are below the
poverty line. And [inaud.] up to 90 percent. You have the largest number of pupils that
should be in school, school-aged students, [inaud.] so you also have a lot of illiteracy.
It is by all standards the most backward part of a rich country with [more] people. And
then you also have, there is such, there is also a tradition of resistance right from
the time of, even before the colonial rule. Again, the [inaud.].
So you have poverty, has been an issue in a context we have, people have been used to
[fighting]. So this is a very, very dangerous [inaud.]. And you also have a state that makes
it difficult for legitimate expressions of [inaud.], and that tries to demonize people
that for the--a good example, a few days back, one [woman] and five soldiers in the [inaud.].
What did the [army] have to say when the [inaud.] newspaper. Nigerians [inaud.] sure that he
said that. Oh, this is not, this is because they like the way of life of Boko Haram. You
have other locals very, very [untoward] stuff by [inaud.] in trying to hide the fact that
what they are facing is much more than just what can be defeated militarily. It has such
economic roots, and that snowballs beyond what can result in meeting a December deadline
or [inaud.] as the president stated a few months back.
DESVARIEUX: Okay. Let's pivot and discuss how people who are fighting poverty and the
extraction of Africa's wealth into corporate hands--there's a whole history behind this.
And this year Nigerians are commemorating the 20th anniversary of the execution of environmental
activist Ken Saro-Wiwa. For those who don't know, back in 2009, oil giant Shell paid $15.5
million as part of a settlement that accused the company of collaborating with the Nigerian
army to kill Saro-Wiwa and eight other activists.
So for many around the world this lawsuit helped bring to life the extent to which companies
and the government worked together to crush social justice movements. So Baba, I want
to ask you, is this crushing of civil society opposition, is this to blame for the rise
of ISIS as well? And if so, can you explain how?
AYE: I would rather say attempt at crushing social movements. Because unfortunately those
who sow the wind, they reap the whirlwind. The case of Saro-Wiwa that [inaud.] is very
instructive for several reasons. The movement for the survival of the [inaud.] people, which
came Saro-Wiwa late, actually stood for civil disobedience, peaceful struggle. But with
the killing of Ken Saro-Wiwa, the genie was let out of the bottle in the [inaud.] and
it was the context within which there was a [inaud.] to arms later. And you see that
20 years after the death of Saro-Wiwa, even his memory and attempts to commemorate--that
is an attack, an attack by the Nigerian state. The social action and the [organization] of
society for which are put [inaud.] of the United Action for Democracy. They tried to,
they did import what they called the commemorative [force], which was, it was something from
a competition when the 20th anniversary of Saro-Wiwa was, judicial [model] was done in
the UK. And it was to be used as part of the symbolism for marking the 20th year. But the
customs refused, refused to allow this to pass through into their [inaud.]. [Inaud.]
like the general, popular general of the [council]. But for the same tribunal that [inaud.].
So you see, there's a trajectory of repression. But unfortunately what the [inaud.] brings
about is more violent response. You see this also with what you have in Boko Haram. Don't
forget that it was a killing of the leader of Boko Haram, [yusuf], in 2009, that led
to [inaud.] of Boko Haram. And you find it also with regards to ISIS. You see, this is
the fact that the system breeds, breeds a macabre [dance] with the entire society. [Inaud.]
DESVARIEUX: But hold on, Baba. Because there are certain people that are going to say this
is not about poverty. This is not about repressing people. This is about ideology. This is about
the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in the world. So what do you say to people who approach
the issue that way?
AYE: I think they miss the point. They miss the point that you cannot separate ideology
from the lives of people. You have always had [inaud.] for centuries now, but you have
not always had them [inaud.]. It is not, if you ask me, it is not accidental that you
had the [inaud.] in [inaud.] they were [inaud.] the mujaheddins in Afghanistan, the Iranian
revolutions. You know, about the same time you had the coming of Ronald Reagan and Margaret
Thatcher, who we have the extreme right [inaud.]. You see, when people can not live--when material
existence becomes so maddening for people, it provides ready ground, it provides the
soil for recruitment into projects that [inaud.] or from [inaud.] they decide, you know, people
within [inaud.] or people within a [inaud.] war.
So I think that, thinking that ideology is [inaud.] the life of its own is one of the
most, pardon me if I use the phrase, [inaud.] nonsense. But that's just as soon [inaud.].
DESVARIEUX: All right. Baba, let's pause the conversation here. In part two we'll discuss
the West's response to these attacks and how corruption is getting in the way of curbing
Boko Haram. Baba Aye, thank you so much for being with us.
AYE: Thank you so much, Jessica.
DESVARIEUX: And thank you for joining us on the Real News Network.