A number of news reporters have tried and are still trying to understand
former President Donald Trump and his influence on our nation's politics.
Today, the one who has undoubtedly spent more time covering him than
any other is New York Times White House correspondent Maggie Haberman,
who has been covering Mr Trump since the 19 nineties.
She's out with a new book, and I spoke with her about it. This afternoon.
It's title Confidence man, the making of Donald Trump and the Breaking
of America.
It's him better than any other reporter, and I want to start with.
I think the question a question that that is all about what what
keeps him in the news. And that is his denial of the result of the
2020 election, insisting that he actually want Is this something
he believes to be true or what I mean? We know it is not true. How
do you explain it?
It's a really good question, Judy and thank you for having me to
talk about the book. He
Clearly in my reporting, and I described this. In the first few days
after the November 2020 election, he seemed aware that he had lost
in his conversations with the number of AIDS and then by the second
week, something had just switched and he was insisting that he had
one. He was telling people he wasn't going to leave, and it's very
hard to know now.
Whether he really believes this or whether it is just something he
is saying, But you know, he is one of the things he said to me in
one of our interviews was that he uses repetition in interviews to
beat something into and I quote my beautiful brain. He is very aware
that if you repeat something over and over again, it can turn it
into something real. And it's just hard to know how much is that
versus. He's convinced himself of this. Well, we know that he I mean,
and you've written this. He views the truth.
Is something that's
Transactional. How does he see the truth? I mean, how does he take
in facts? I mean, does he just create a different factual universe?
I mean, what? What? How does he do this?
I don't know if you're familiar with the Children's book, Harold
and the Purple Purple Crayon, But it's about a child named Harold,
who literally has a purple crayon and he draws a whole world at night.
One night draws buildings. He draws roads. Uh, you know, I used that
metaphor to describe him in 2017. It's obviously not benign. There's
a malevolence around how he does this a lot of the time, but but
he treats facts as if they are things that can be
Either discarded or invented or or created or augmented but but
factory and ongoing fluid thing with him, and this is one of the
things that makes establishing a baseline of discernible truth around
him so incredibly hard. Do you think he knows what's real? And what
isn't
I think sometimes he does, And I think sometimes he seems less clear.
I also think he's extremely suggestible. And I think he's extremely
paranoid. And so it is easy for people to convince him that something
is true. And it is not and somewhat in connection with that. There's
a long list of people. He's belittled people who've been loyal to
him like Lindsey Graham, Senator Graham, Kevin McCarthy. He's called
him a weakling. And again I could name many others. We know he does
this is there anyone in political life he true?
He admires.
Honestly, the first name that came to mind as you were asking that
question was Richard Nixon, with whom it was obviously not alive
anymore, with whom he had a huge fascination. He mentioned Nixon
unprompted in one of our interviews. But no, I think that have political
of us political leaders who are alive right now. I'm very hard pressed
to point to a single person who he really admires unless they're
fighting for him. He admires autocrats in other countries, and he
makes that very clear. You know, President Xi Jinping of China. He's
been praising repeatedly since
He left office. Um, you know, he was constantly looking for a relationship
with him.
In the past and and and kept it going out of out of office. Still
this admiration I can't think of anyone who's you know behavior in
typical US political fashion. He admires right now sensitive subject,
but we know there are a number of incidents that happened during
his presidency that lead people.
To say he is racist. Um, most recently, just in the last few days,
he put out a statement about Elaine Chao, the wife of Senator Mitch
McConnell, She's former transportation secretary. Do you think at
his core?
That he is racist.
I think he has a long pattern of racist behavior going back to when
he was in New York City, and we clearly saw it continue in the White
House. Be it attacking Elijah Cummings and Baltimore. You know, a
city that is part of the United States. And Trump is supposed to
be the president for all of the United States. Whether he was attacking
Congresswoman of Color, You know whether he was
Um, getting into various, You know, condemnation or lack thereof.
I should say of of white supremacist whether he was flirting with
the Q and a conspiracy theory. You know, his behavior is really what
matters on this front. So you know what, exactly In his his in his
heart, I think becomes irrelevant. He is behaving in a racist way.
He has called you, um, essentially like his psychiatrist, Whether
you you know, agree with that term or not, Um, but that's what he
said. I'm quoting now. Mary Trump, his niece who, among other things,
said that she thinks he is he has what she calls narcissistic personality.
Disorder. She goes on to talk about a fragile ego that has to be
constantly fed, Um and and so on. But my question to you is what
do you think he cares about the most or whom? What is he? It is court.
What does he care about? I just want to go back to the psychiatrist
line. He said that to me in one of our interviews, and as I write,
it was it was meant to flatter and it's a meaningless line. He treats
everyone like they're his psychiatrists because he's working everything
out in in real time. What he needs is attention. I think
This is right. And she clearly knows the family dynamic and knows
him and all of these family stories very, very well, There isn't
anyone. Uh, but but I do think that, uh, he needs whatever he doesn't
have. And whatever that might be in any given moment. And finally
Maggie Haberman, you've said that he may have backed himself into
a corner when it comes to whether he's going to run for president.
Again, and for that reason he may do it. But if he does, what do
you think a second Donald Trump presidency term would look like?
I think to quote someone who knew him years ago. Who said this to
me? Uh, a couple of months back. A second Trump presidency would
be very heavily driven by spite. Uh, now it would look like him.
I don't believe that he learned how to be president. You know more
astutely. I don't think he figured the office out. But I do think
he figured out personnel, which is often what he's focused on. And
I think that the people who he would put into key jobs would be very
alarming to a number.
Of people across Washington. I think that's what a second president
Trump presidency would look like.
Maggie Haberman. Thank you. The reporter who has known Donald Trump
longer than any other. The book is confidence, man. Thank you.