SURROUNDING THE CONCEPT.
>> A GROWING NUMBER OF COMPANIES
SAY THEY WILL REQUIRE PROOF OF
VACCINATION BEFORE OPENING THEIR
DOORS.
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS
WORKING WITH PRIVATE COMPANIES
TO DEVELOP STANDARDS TO PROVE
VACCINATION STATUS THOUGH IT
DOESN'T HAVE PLANS TO IMPLEMENT
ANY KIND OF FEDERAL PROGRAM YET.
THIS COMES AS THE UNITED KINGDOM
PLANS TO TEST THE VACCINE
PASSPORT CONCEPT AND AS ISRAEL'S
GREEN PASS SYSTEM HAS BEEN IN
PLACE SINCE FEBRUARY AND JOINING
US TO DISCUSS LEGAL AND ETHICAL
CONSIDERATIONS ARE CRAIG KLUGMAN
A PROFESSOR AT DePAUL
UNIVERSITY.
COALLEEN CONNELL EXECUTIVE
DIRECTOR OF THE A.C.L.U. OF
ILLINOIS AND DANIEL RODRIGUEZ
HAROLD WASHINGTON PROFESSOR OF
LAW AT PRITZKER SCHOOL OF LAW.
CRAIG, DESCRIBE FOR US WHAT A
VACCINE PASSPORT WOULD LOOK LIKE
IN THE CONTEXT OF COVID-19?
>> SO A VACCINE PASSPORT IS
SIMPLY A GOVERNMENT-ISSUED PIECE
OF PAPER THAT NOTES YOU HAVE
BEEN VACCINATED FOR COVID-19.
AND WE'VE HAD THESE SINCE 1969.
THIS IS ONE CREATED BY THE WORLD
HEALTH ORGANIZATION FOR YELLOW
FEVER.
SO IT IS NOT A NEW CONCEPT.
BUT THAT'S WHAT IT WOULD LOOK
LIKE AND MOST OF THE ONES NOW
ARE ELECTRONIC IT WOULD BE AN
APP ON YOUR PHONE.
>> AND DANIEL RODRIGUEZ WHAT
LEGAL STANDING WOULD AN
ORGANIZATION SAY THE CHICAGO
CUBS OR A RESTAURANT OR PUBLIC
SECTOR ORGANIZATION LIKE A
LIBRARY HAVE IF THEY CHOSE TO
ENFORCE VACCINE PASSPORT OR
PROOF OF VACCINATION?
>> WELL, DEPENDS FIRST AS YOUR
EXAMPLES NOTE WHETHER IT IS A
PUBLIC SECTOR OR PRIVATE SECTOR.
THE REQUIREMENTS ARE NOT
IDENTICAL AND THE POWERS THAT AN
ENTITY OR ORGANIZATION WOULD
HAVE, WOULD DEPEND ON NO SMALL
PART WHETHER IT'S PUBLIC OR
PRIVATE.
A PUBLIC ORGANIZATION WE HAVE AN
AMOUNT OF AUTHORITY IF IT IS A
STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT THEY
HAVE TO FIND THAT IN STATE
STATUTE OR REGULATION AND
SUBJECT TO CIVIL LIBERTIES
ISSUES, POTENTIAL OBJECTIONS OF
INDIVIDUALS AND THEY WOULD HAVE
TO TURN SQUARE CORNERS WITH
RESPECT TO THE REQUIREMENTS AND
THE RIGHTS AND PRIVACY
CONSIDERATIONS THEY PROVIDE.
DITTO PRIVATE ORGANIZATIONS IT'S
FAIR TO SAY THAT PRIVATE
ORGANIZATIONS AND BUSINESSES
FROM THE CHICAGO CUBS TO THE
RESTAURANT WOULD HAVE A WIDER
LATITUDE TO REQUIRE SUCH
RESTRICTIONS AND REGULATIONS ON
THEIR EMPLOYEES AND GUESTS.
>> COALLEEN CONNELL WHAT CIVIL
LIBERTIES ISSUES MIGHT CROP UP
IF ORGANIZATIONS WERE TO GO THIS
ROUTE OR PUBLIC ENTITIES?
>> AGAIN, JUST TO ECHO DANIEL IT
DEPENDS WHETHER IT IS A PRIVATE
OR PUBLIC ENTITY IN LARGE
MEASURE.
I THINK IT RAISES SERIOUS
CONSTITUTIONAL BUT NOT
INSURMOUNTABLE ISSUES FOR
GOVERNMENT TO MANDATE VACCINES
OR A VACCINE PASSPORT.
I THINK THAT MOVING FROM THE
PUBLIC SECTOR TO THE PRIVATE
SECTOR, COMPANIES HAVE BEEN
ALLOWED BROAD LATITUDE TO
DETERMINE THE CONDITIONS UNDER
WHICH THEY WILL OPERATE THEIR
BUSINESS.
SO LONG AS THEY DON'T USE THE
WRONG REASONS.
FOR EXAMPLE, A HEALTHCARE
EMPLOYER MIGHT BE ABLE TO
REQUIRE EMPLOYEES TO HAVE A
VACCINE AS A CONDITION OF
EMPLOYMENT.
BUT IF THAT HEALTHCARE EMPLOYER
ENFORCED THAT VACCINE
REQUIREMENT IN A DISCRIMINATORY
WAY SAY ONLY AGAINST WOMEN OR
ONLY AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR
THAT WOULD RAISE LEGAL ISSUES
FOR THAT PRIVATE ENTITY.
>> A LOT OF THINGS THAT
ORGANIZATIONS WILL HAVE TO KEEP
IN MIND.
CRAIG KLUGMAN EQUITY HAS BEEN A
BIG ISSUE IN TERMS OF THE ROLL
OUT OF THE VACCINE HOW WOULD
EQUITY PLAY IN THE CONCEPT OF A
VACCINE PASSPORT?
>> WELL, IT WILL ECHO WHAT HAS
HAPPENED WITH THIS DISEASE AND
WITH THE VACCINE.
PEOPLE HAVE GROWTH EN IT THE
MOST AND HOSPITALIZED MOST AND
DIED THE MOST ARE THE PEOPLE OF
COLOR AND OLDER PEOPLE.
AND THEY ARE THE SAME PEOPLE
LESS LIKELY TO HAVE THE DEVICES
THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS
BEEN LOOKING AT 17 APPS BEING
DEVELOPED AND THEY ARE ALL
PRIVATE COMPANIES AND THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WON'T WANT
ONE YOU NEED TO HAVE A
SMARTPHONE IN ORDER TO HAVE THIS
APP.
THAT IS ONE ISSUE.
ANOTHER ISSUE IS THAT IF THIS IS
USED TO PREVENT OR TO ADMIT
ACCESS TO PUBLIC EVENTS OR
CONCERT OR A BALL GAME OR TO A
RESTAURANT, TO MORE PUBLIC AREAS
THEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST IN TERMS
OF THE PANDEMIC ARE LIKELY TO
FIND THEMSELVES MORE
DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE
THEY ARE LEAST LIKELY TO HAVE
ACCESS TO THE VACCINE NOW
NECESSARY.
YOU HAVE LACK OF ACCESS TO THE
TECHNOLOGY BECAUSE IT WILL NOT
BE A PIECE OF PAPER.
AND YOU HAVE LACK OF ACCESS TO
THE VACCINE THAT IS NECESSARY TO
BE ABLE TO PARTAKE IN OUR PUBLIC
LIFE.
>> AND DANIEL RODRIGUEZ, AS
CRAIG MENTIONED YOU HAVE 17
PRIVATE COMPANYING DEVELOPING AN
APP, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
WILL GIVE THEM GUIDANCE WHAT
WOULD YOU GUIDE THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION TO GUIDE THESE 17
PRIVATE COMPANIES IN DEVELOPING
SOMETHING LIKE THIS?
>> WELL, WITHOUT DELVING TOO
DEEPLY INTO THE TECHNOLOGY WHICH
IS SHALL I SAY ABOVE MY PAY
GRADE LET ME GIVE A POSITIVE
SPIN ON CRAIG'S DESCRIPTION.
THE QUESTION OF DEVELOPING AN
TO TO REQUIRE INDIVIDUALS TO
PRESENT A SMARTPHONE AND SHOW
THROUGH THE APP THAT THEY HAVE
BECOME VACCINATED IS PROBLEMATIC
FOR JUST THE REASONS HE SAID.
RAISES ISSUES.
IF INSTEAD IT IS IN TWO STAGES
HE PUT UP THE VISUAL OF THE
YELLOW PASSPORT.
IF THE APP MOVES IN THE
DIRECTION OF PROVIDING A
MECHANISM BY WHICH THE
GOVERNMENT CAN PROVIDE SOMETHING
YOU CAN PRINTOUT AND HAVE A
DOCUMENT, THE BIDEN
ADMINISTRATION WOULD WORK HARD
TO DO THAT THAT WOULD BE
BENEFICIAL.
I SHOULD SAY THAT I AGREE WITH
HIM ABOUT THE ACCESS TO THE
VACCINATIONS.
WHAT A PASSPORT WOULD LOOK LIKE
TODAY WHERE THERE'S TREMENDOUS
PROBLEMS OF ACCESS WOULD BE
DIFFERENT THAN WHAT IT WILL LOOK
LIKE TWO OR THREE MONTHS FROM
NOW WHERE GOD WILLING WE HAVE
MUCH, MUCH RESORT TO PROVIDING
SUPPLY OF VACCINES AND EQUITABLE
DISTRIBUTION.
>> A PASSPORT MIGHT HAVE TO BE A
LONG-TERM PROJECT BASED UPON
MORE OF THE POPULATION GETTING
THE VACCINE.
COALLEEN CONNELL WHAT ABOUT
PRIVACY CONCERNS IF THIS BECOMES
AN APP IF PRIVATE COMPANIES ARE
DEVELOPING AN IF GOVERNMENTS
REQUIRE AN ELECTRONIC APP DO
PEOPLE HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT
HACKING?
AND WHETHER THEIR HEALTH
INFORMATION STAYS SECURE?
>> YES, I THINK ALL OF THOSE ARE
SERIOUS CONSIDERATIONS.
I THINK FOR SUCH AN APP TO MEET
SOME IMPORTANT CONSIDERATIONS.
IT SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THE
USER CONTROLS THE APP AND THE
INFORMATION.
AND THERE SHOULD BE SAFEGUARDS
WRITTEN INTO IT THAT THE CONCEPT
OF INFORMED CONSENT WHICH IS
WHAT UNDERLIES OUR MEDICAL CARE
SYSTEM IS TO GIVE INFORMED
CONSENT TO A PROCEDURE OR TO
SHARING INFORMATION ABOUT THAT
PROCEDURE.
AND THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT.
IT WOULD WANT SAFEGUARD AGAINST
USING THE DEVICE TO TRACK THE
MOVEMENT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE THAT
DEVICE.
AND YOU WOULD ALSO WANT SOME
SERIOUS RESTRICTIONS ON THE
COMMERCIAL SALE OR OTHER USE OR
SHARING OF INFORMATION ON THAT
APP.
>> QUICKLY, CRAIG KLUGMAN, WE
HAVE A FEW SECONDS LEFT WE
MENTIONED ISRAEL, THE EU HOW ARE
THEIR PASSPORTS WORKING?
>> WELL, IN ISRAEL, IT'S WORKING
AS WE LAID OUT.
IF YOU WANT TO GO TO RESTAURANTS
AND EVENTS YOU SCAN A BARCODE
THAT SHOWS UP ON YOUR PHONE AND
ALLOWS YOU ACCESS.
NEW YORK STATE HAS RECENTLY
STARTED THIS WITH THE EXCELSIOR
PROGRAM IF YOU WANT ACCESS TO
PUT THIS ON AND IT GETS CHECKED
AGAINST THE DATABASE WHO HAS HAD
THE VACCINE OR NOT.
IT'S NOT TAKING THE WORD BUT IS
ANOTHER ISSUE AND YOU CAN GO IN.
ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT IS
CONCERNING ABOUT ALL THESE IS
THE QUESTION OF AUTONOMY THE
RIGHT TO GOVERN YOURSELF.
IF THESE ARE USED AS A CARROT,
TO GET PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED
THAT MAKES THEM GOOD.
BUT USED AS A STICK AS IF YOU
DON'T GET A VACCINE YOU DON'T
GET ACCESS THAT CAN BE MORE
PROBLEMATIC.
>> VERY IMPORTANT THERE.
SO MUCH TO CONSIDER WITH THIS