COMEY AND THAT HE VIOLATED FBI DISCLOSURE RULES THAT LEAD TO
McCABES FIRING.
McCABES FIRING. JOINING ME NOW IS BEN WHITAKER.
YOU READ THE EXCERPTS, MR. BREN
THAN IN, AND HE SOUNDED AS A
ALARMED IN MAY AS YOU HAVE
SOUNDED AT TIMES.
HOW FAMILIAR DID HIS ACCOUNT
RING TO YOU?
>> VERY FAMILIAR.
I HAVE KNOWN AND RESPECTED ANDY
McCABE FOR MANY YEARS AND FOR A SENIOR FBI OFFICIALS AND CIAR A
SENIOR FBI OFFICIALS AND CIA OFFICIALS, OUR COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE ANTENNA FOR RUSSIAN
ESPIONAGE IS VERY SENSITIVE. >> IS IT TOO SENSITIVE?TIVE.
>> IS IT TOO SENSITIVE? >> SOME COULD ARGUE IT WAS A
CONSPIRACY, BUT LETS REP THE
SPRING OF 17.
WE CAME OFF OF AN ELECTION WHERE
IT WAS A THE UNANIMOUS POSITION OF FOUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIESON
OF FOUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES THAT THE RUSSIANS WERE
INTERFERES IN THEINTERFERE INTERFERING IN THE ELECTION AND
TRYING TO ADVANCE THE INTERESTS
OF DONALD TRUMP.
THAT WAS A FACT IN THE FBI AND THE CIA. A FACT IN THE FBI AND
THE CIA. THEN YOU HAVE THINGS HAPPENING
THAT MR. TRUMP WAS DOING AND
SAYING, AND THEN JUST THE
SUMMARY REMOVAL OF JIM COMEY WHO WAS PURSUING THE INVESTIGATIONS,
I THINK IT RAISED CONCERNS IN
THE MINDS OF ANDY McCABE AND
OTHERS.
WHAT IS GOING ON, HERE?
WHAT COULD THE RUSSIANS BE DOING WITH U.S. OFFICIALS.ANS BE DOING
WITH U.S. OFFICIALS. AND INITIATING A TYPE OF COUNTER
INTELLIGENCE INITIATIVE AT THAT
TIME I THINK WAS APPROPRIATE.
>> WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATIONOF
HOW THERE WAS AN INVESTIGATION LAUNCH IN 16.
I FLOW IS SEPARATION OF CIA AND
FBI, BUT WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW BIG THE INVESTIGATION WASF
HOW BIG THE INVESTIGATION WAS WHEN COMEY WAS RUNNING IT.
>> I WOULD SAY LOW LEVEL BUZZ BEFORE A FULL INVESTIGATION.Z
BEFORE A FULL INVESTIGATION. BEFORE THEN WE WERE LOOKING AT
WHAT THEY MIGHT BE PLANNING TO
DO IN THE ELECTION.
THEN IT STARTED TO GROW IN INTENSITY AND SCOPE.ROW IN
INTENSITY AND SCOPE. AND THE FBI INVESTIGATORS CAME
UPON VARIOUS THREADS OF INDIVIDUALS THAT WEREOF
INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE INTERACTING WITH THE RUSSIANS.
BY THE TIME SPRING OF 17 CAME AROUND, IM SURE THAT THE FBIE
AROUND, IM SURE THAT THE FBI AND CIA WERE WORKING TOGETHER TO
TRY TO UNCOVER AS MUCH OF THIS
EFFORT ON THE PART OF THE RUSSIANS AS POSSIBLE. THE
RUSSIANS AS POSSIBLE. >> BEN, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT
WE NOTED THIS MORNING IS THIS IS MAY, COMEY IT SFIERED IN MAY OFS
MAY, COMEY IT SFIERED IN MAY OF 2017, THE FOLLOWING THINGS HAD
NOT YET HAPPENED YET BY THAT TIME.ET HAPPENED YET BY THAT
TIME.
A MONTH LATER, PRESIDENT TRUMP REPORTEDLY ORDERS THE WHITEUMP
REPORTEDLY ORDERS THE WHITE HOUSE COUNTY TILL TO FIRE
MUELLER.
MUELLER.
IN 2018 HE HE REVOKES THIS MANS SECURITY CLEARANCE CITING WOSHS
SECURITY CLEARANCE CITING WOSH ON THE RUSSIA PROBE.
JANUARY 2019, THE INTEL CHIEFS
DISPUTED THE PRESIDENT ON ISSUES
LIKE NORTH KOREA, IRAN, AND
RUSSIA.
RUSSIA.
AND KREMLIN TALKING POINTS ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.TALKING POINTS ABOUT
AFGHANISTAN.
>> THAT IS ALL FAKE NEWS.
>> ALL OF THIS HAPPENED AFTER ANDY McCABE AND ROD ROSENSTEIN
HAD THIS PANICKED MOMENT.
>> WE DONT KNOW THAT.
I THINK THE MANICED MOMENT YOU REFER TO IS A REALLY IMPORTANT
THING.
THING.
YOU KNOW, IT FEELS LIKE ANCIENT HISTORY TO US.EELS LIKE ANCIENT
HISTORY TO US. IN THIS MOMENT THE PEOPLE
INVOLVED THOUGHT THE PRESIDENT
WAS COMING INTO SHUT DOWN AN
INVESTIGATION AND HE WORRIED IT
WAS ON BEHALF OF A RUSSIAN
ADVERSARY.
IN THIS PERIOD OF TIME HE LED
THE FBI WITH A LOT OF DIGNITY AND A LOT OF CLASS IN THE FACE
OF UNBELIEVABLE PRESIDENTIAL
BULLYING.
BULLYING.
>> AND REMEMBER AT THE END OF
THE FIRST WEEK AFTER THE AFTER
THIS CONVERSATION HAPPENED WHERE
THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES ASKED THIS MAN HOW DOES
IT FEEL TO BE MARRIED TO A LOSER, HE GIVES TESTIMONY WHERE
HE CONTRADICTS THE PRESIDENT ON
THE FBI RANK AND FILE TO JIM
COMBY.
WE WILL BE DEBATING THIS FOR A
LONG TIME, BUT IT IS AN
IMPORTANT THING THAT THIS PERIOD
OF TIME THAT PRODUCES THE
MUELLER INVESTIGATION, IT
PRODUCES A STABLE INVESTIGATIVE CLIMATE, HE GETS A LOT OF CREDIT
FOR THAT.
FOR THAT.
>> JOHN, AS SOMEONE THAT HAS
BEEN IN COUNTER INVESTIGATION,
WHAT ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR AFTER
THIS, IS IT ALL DAMMING?
>> I THINK IT IS PUZZLING IN
TERMS OF HOW REHE REACTED TO A L OF THINGS.OW REHE REACTED TO A L
OF THINGS. >> THIS IS A PERM ATTACK ON YOU
THAT SEEMS REFLECTIVE, BUT IT IS
PART OF THE STORY.
>> IT IS CLEAR THAT HE HAS A
SERIOUS CONCERN ABOUT WHAT THE
INVESTIGATION MAY UNCOVER.
I BELIEVE DEEPLY THAT MR. TRUMP
KNOWS WHAT HE HAS DONE AND HE
HAS DONE SOME THINGS THAT WERE
VERY UNPRINCIPALED AND UNETHICAL TO INCLUDE, AS HE WASD UNETHICAL
TO INCLUDE, AS HE WAS CAMPAIGNING FOR PRESIDENT OF THE
UNITED STATES, AND HIS EFFORTS
TO SHUT DOWN THIS INVESTIGATION
IS VERY CLEAR EVIDENCE WORRIED A
OUT AND HOW HIS ACTIVITIES WILL
BE REVEALED.
>> IF YOU WERENT THE SITTING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES,
WOULD YOU THINK HE WAS A RUSSIAN
ASSET, AN AGENT, OR AN UNWITTING AGENT? AN AGENT, OR AN UNWITTING
AGENT?
>> THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT
THE RUSSIANS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO
MANIPULATE AND EXPLOIT BECAUSE
INDIVIDUALS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THE RUSSIANS MIGHT EXPOSET
WHAT THE RUSSIANS MIGHT EXPOSE THAT COULD EMBARRASS, DISCREDIT,
AND HURT THEM. THOSE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE
NOT ASSETS OR AGENTS.
THEY ARE ONES WHO COOPERATE AND
COLLUDE BECAUSE OF THE POTENTIAL
DAMAGE THAT THE RUSSIANS CAN DO
IF THE RUSSIANS DECIDE TO COME
OUT AGAINST THEM.
AND THAT CLEARLY I THINK IS WHAT A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS IN THEAT
A NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE BEEN
DOING IN THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS.
>> BEN, HOW DO YOU CONVINCE
PEOPLE NOT TO READ SOME OF
McCABES BOOK AS VEN JENSGEANCE? >> THERE MAY BE SCORE SETTLING?
>> THERE MAY BE SCORE SETTLING IN THIS, BUT IS THE MATERIAL IN
IT TRUE, WHEN THE NEW YORK TIMES FIRST STARTED REPORTING THESEMES
FIRST STARTED REPORTING THESE CLAIMS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR
EXAMPLE THAT ROD ROSENSTEIN OFFERED TO WEAR A WHILE, OR
THERE WAS TALK OF INVOKING THE
25th AMENDMENT, THE JUSTICE
DEPARTMENT SORT OF DENIED IT.
YOU KNOW, NOW THERE IS A NAME
ASSOCIATED WITH THESE CLAIMS,
AND HE IS MAKING HIS CASE, AND
PEOPLE CAN DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES IF THEY THINK THE MATERIAL ISVES
IF THEY THINK THE MATERIAL IS TRUE.
TRUE.
IF THEY THINK IT IS TRUE, PEOPLE HAVE HIS MOTIVES IN COMINGPEOPLE
HAVE HIS MOTIVES IN COMING FORWARD AT THIS STAGE, AND TO
WHAT ELEMENT THERE IS SCORE SETTLING IS BE SIDE THE POINT.
>> IS HE A NEW WITNESS?
>> I SUSPECT IF IT TURNS OUT TO
BE THE CASE HE WILL MAKE USE OF
EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.
EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.
>> HOW DO YOU DWLUS IF IT IS NOT TALKING TO THE PRESIDENT. IS NOT
TALKING TO THE PRESIDENT. >>CEPSTIVE MATERIAL, PENDING
INVESTIGATIONS, BUT I THINK HE IS UNLIKELY TO WANT TO WALK UP
TO CAPITOL HILL AND TELL HIS
WHOLE STORY.
WHOLE STORY.
>> JOHN, YOU OUTLINED A SCENARIO
IN ONE OP-ED IN THE "NEW YORK
TIMES."
THIS IS THE DAY AFTER YOUR
CLEARANCE GOT REVOKED, THAT
ESSENTIALLY MADE THE CASE THAT
SOLUTION
COLLUSION IS THERE, BUT EVERYONE
HAS A DIFFERENT DEFINITION,
WHATS YOURS?
>> INTERACTING WITH ANOTHER
PARTY FOR A JOINT AND COMMON
PURPOSE.
THE DISTINCTION I MADE IN THAT
OP-ED IS BETWEEN COLLUSION THAT
I THINK HAS TAKEN PLACE.
WHEN DONALD TRUMP AT THE END OF
JULY OF 2016 CALLED FOR RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE TO FIND HILLARYIAN
INTELLIGENCE TO FIND HILLARY CLINTONS E-MAILS, THAT TO ME
WAS COLLUSION. THATS WHAT BOB MUELLER, THE
SPECIAL COUNCIL, IS DOING.
AND THEY ARE DETERMINING IF THAT AMOUNTED TO CRIMINALITY. IF THAT
AMOUNTED TO CRIMINALITY. SO THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE REPORT THAT CAME OUT
BEFORE THIS, TO ME THE SENATE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE WAS NOT
SUPPOSED TO DO ANY TYPE OF
CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.
THEYRE LOOKING AT WHAT THE
RUSSIANS DID, HOW THE
GOVERNMENT, CIA, FBI RESPONDED, HOW WE CAN STRENGTHEN OURONDED,
HOW WE CAN STRENGTHEN OUR DEFENSES IN THE FUTURE.
WHAT ROLES AND CAPABILITIES WE
NEED TO PUSH BACK, BUT LETS
LEAVE IT TO BOB MUELLER.
I HAVE MY OWN VIEWS ABOUT
WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS
CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY, BUT WHAT
BOB MUELLER DETERMINES, I WILL
ACCEPT THAT.
>> OKAY, THIS MUELLER ARE E REPORT, IS THERE A POSSIBILITY
THAT THIS REPORT WILL NOT BE
WHAT EVERYBODY THINKS IT WILL
BE?
>> YES, NUMBER ONE WE HAVE NO
IDEA WHEN IT IS COMING, WE DONT KNOW WHAT FORM IT WILL TAKE, IT
COULD BE QUITE MINIMAL, WE HAVE
NO IDEA WHATEVER FORM IT SHOWS
UP IN WHAT PARTS WILL BECOME
PUBLIC AND NUMBER FOUR WE HAVE
NO IDEA HOW MUCH INVESTIGATIVE