♪.
DAVID: CHINA’S CYBER
CAPABILITIES ARE POSING A
SERIOUS THREAT TO THE U.S. AS
NATIONAL SECURITY CONCERNS
CONTINUE TO GROW OVER THE
CHINESE-OWNED VIDEO SHARING APP
TIKTOK.
JOINING ME TO TALK ABOUT IT ALL,
MICHAEL PILLSBURY, HUDSON
INSTITUTE, DIRECTOR OF CHINESE
STRATEGY, AUTHOR OF THE 100 YEAR
MARATHON, CHINA’S SECRET
STRATEGY TO REPLACE AMERICA AS
THE GLOBAL SUPERPOWER.
MICHAEL, IT HAS BEEN TOO LONG.
THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.
>> HI, DAVID.
DAVID: HOW ADVANCE IS CHINA’S
CYBER WARFARE CAPABILITY?
LET’S START THERE.
I HEARD THEY HAVE 10 TIMES MORE
PEOPLE WORKING IN THEIR CYBER
COMMAND THAN WE DO.
IS THIS COME MISS RAT WITH A
HUGE ADVANCE OVER OUR
CAPABILITY?
>> TO PUT IT BRIEFLY, YES.
YOU’RE QUOTING FROM A NEW
CONGRESSIONAL REPORT BY THE
U.S.-CHINA ECONOMIC SECURITY
COMMISSION.
DAVID: YES.
>> THIS COMMISSION IS ACTUALLY
QUITE WONDERFUL.
IT HAS BEEN IN EXISTENCE FOR
ABOUT 20 YEARS.
EVERYBODY ON IT, IT IS
BIPARTISAN.
EVERYBODY ON THE COMMISSION HAS
A TOP SECRET CLEARANCE.
THEY GET ALL KINDS OF
INFORMATION FROM THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY EVERY
YEAR AND THEY PUT OUT THIS
REPORT, OFTEN SOUNDING THE ALARM
THE WAY THEY ARE THIS TIME WITH
THIS 10 TO ONE RATIO THAT CHINA
IS AHEAD OF US IN TERMS OF
PEOPLE WORKING ON SABRE.
THEY ALSO REPORTED THAT THE
CHINESE ARE FAR MORE OFFENSIVE,
18 TO 20% OF THEIR TEAM IS
OFFENSIVE CYBER.
OURS IS EQUIVALENT NUMBER IS ONE
TO 2%.
DAVID: WOW.
>> SO THIS COMMISSION IS GOOD
BUT THEY NEVER QUITE SAY WHAT TO
DO.
THEY HAVE CONCLUSION, CONGRESS
SHOULD LOOK INTO THIS.
SO IT DOESN’T MAKE ANY PROGRESS.
DAVID: LET ME JUST ASK YOU
SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TIKTOK.
HOW IMPORTANT IS TIKTOK AS A
PART OF THEIR CYBER WARFARE
CAPABILITY?
IS IT PENETRATING INTO OUR
NATIONAL DATABASES?
>> WELL TIKTOK AS YOU KNOW,
DAVID, CAN SEARCH A PERSON’S
PHONE AND TRANSMIT THE DATA IN
IT, CONTACTS, EMAILS, EVERYTHING
TO CHINA.
THIS HAS BEEN POINTED OUT NOW
FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS.
IT DOESN’T SEEM TO DETER PEOPLE
FROM WANTING TO USE TIKTOK.
SO IT WILL TAKE LEGISLATION TO
RESTRICT IT.
ONCE AGAIN WE HAVE THE
DIAGNOSIS.
WE HAVE PEOPLE SOUNDING THE
ALARM BUT NOTHING EVER HAPPENS.
SO YES, TIKTOK IS QUITE
IMPORTANT TO THIS OVERALL
CHINESE NETWORK TO STEAL DATA
ABOUT AMERICAN CITIZENS AND
ABOUT BUSINESSES AND TECHNOLOGY.
DAVID: TICKTOCK BY THE WAY IS
OWNED BY BYTEDANCE BUT BYTEDANCE
IS COMPLETELY CONTROLLED BY THE
CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY?
>> YEAH.
THEY HAVE CHINESE COMMUNIST
OWNERSHIP AND ALSO PARTY CELLS
INSIDE OF THE COMPANY.
I WOULD SAY YES THAT IS TRUE.
WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT BECOMES A
BIG PROBLEM.
DAVID: WE’LL SAVE THAT FOR
ANOTHER DAY BECAUSE I WANT TO
PROVE ON THIS PRESIDENT BIDEN,
PRESIDENT XI MEETING WE WERE
TOLD THEY DIDN’T TALK ABOUT
FENTANYL, DIDN’T TALK ABOUT
COVID ORIGINS.
NOW THEY CALLED UP THE
"NEW YORK POST" OF ALL PEOPLE
BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN CRITICAL
OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION,
SAYING NO, NO, WE DID TALK ABOUT
FENTANYL, WE TALKED ABOUT THE
ORIGINS OF COVID?
DO YOU BUY THAT?
>> I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE AND
JOE BIDEN HIMSELF WHO I KNEW AS
A SENATOR, THEY’RE VERY
SENSITIVE TO CRITICISM THAT
THEY’RE SOFT ON CHINA.
THEY APPARENTLY ARE SOFT ON
CHINA SO THEY ARE VERY
DEFENSIVE.
THEY CLAIM THEY DISCUSSED HEALTH
SECURITY, HEALTH PROBLEMS.
THEY CLAIMED THEY DISCUSSED
FENTANYL.
UNLESS THEY RELEASE THE
TRANSCRIPT OF THE VERY LONG
MEETING HOW WILL THE PUBLIC KNOW
WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED?
DAVID: WE DON’T KNOW.
THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE THEM AT
THEIR WORD, THAT IS A VERY
DANGEROUS PROPOSITION AS WE SEE
IN THE PAST.
I HAVE ASK, BUT ONLY 40 SECONDS,
IS IT ON CONCEIVABLE THAT THE
TARGETING OF THE BIDEN FAMILY,
IT WAS ESPIONAGE TARGETING OF
THE BIDEN FAMILY, SPIES WORKING
WITH JOE BIDEN AND HUNTER BIDEN,
IS IT POSSIBLE THEY HAVE BEEN
COMPROMISED BECAUSE OF THAT
SECURITY BREACH, THE BIDEN
FAMILY WRIT LARGE HAS BEEN
COMPROMISED BY THEIR BUSINESS
DEALINGS, QUICKLY?
>> THEY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED I
THINK IN THE SENSE THAT JOE
BIDEN HIMSELF ALREADY THOUGHT
THIS WAY AND SOMEHOW THROUGH
HUNTER AND ALL THESE BUSINESS
DEALINGS THEY SIMPLY PUSHED
BIDEN EVEN FURTHER TOWARD HIS
OWN BELIEF THAT CHINA IS NOT
REALLY MUCH OF A THREAT OTHER
THAN COMMERCIALLY, McDONALD’S
VERSUS BURGER KING THAT KIND OF
THING.
DAVID: YEAH.
>> SO THIS INVESTIGATION WILL BE
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, DON’T YOU
THINK?
IT IS INDEED AND WE WILL WATCH
WITH BATED BREATH.