ANTHEM.
JOINING US NOW DAVID REMNICK.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING
US TONIGHT.
HOW MUCH OR WHAT IF ANY OF
PRESIDENTS BIDEN'S SPEECH LAST
NIGHT WELL THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE
HERE?
>> VERY LITTLE.
ALMOST AS MUCH AS THOUGH HERE
FROM PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY.
I THINK IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO
OVERESTIMATE THE CAN UMBRELLA
OF CENSORSHIP AND SILENCE THAT
THE RUSSIAN OFFICIALS CREATES.
IT'S PUMPING OUT PROPAGANDA AT
A RATE THAT WOULD, I HOPE,
SHAME EVEN THOSE A FOX NEWS.
IT'S REALLY QUITE
EXTRAORDINARY.
AND THE ONLY WAY THAT RUSSIANS
CAN GET THE INFORMATION THAT
YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, WHETHER
IT'S BY THE ADDRESS, OR
ZELENSKYY'S EXTRAORDINARY
SPEECHES TO HIS OWN PEOPLE INTO
THE WORLD, OR JUST TRADE
INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING
ON IS THROUGH OTHER MEANS.
AND THOSE OTHER MEANS, SOUTHERN
OF THEM GOT SHUT DOWN THIS
YESTERDAY, A TV RAIN --
RARE INDEPENDENT MEDIA WERE
SHUT DOWN.
AND, THIS IS AN INFORMATION
WAR.
AND THIS IS WHY PRESIDENT
ZELENSKYY IS SO INCREDIBLY
SKILLFUL AND UNITING HIS OWN
PEOPLE AND UNITING THE
COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD BEHIND
THE PRINCIPLES OF SOVEREIGNTY
AND DEMOCRACY.
THIS IS A COMIC ACTOR, KIND OF
LIKE JERRY SEINFELD OR BENNIE
HILL SUDDENLY OF ELEVATED TO
THE LEVEL OF PRESIDENT OF
UKRAINE IN THE BIGGEST CRISIS
SINCE THE END OF COMMUNISM,
SINCE 1991.
AND HE'S BEEN MAGNIFICENT.
>> WE SEE A SAMPLE OF RUSSIAN
HEADLINES --
IN MASHA GUESSING'S REPORTER IN
THE NEW YORKER FROM RUSSIA.
AND I'M GONNA READ THESE
HEADLINES, BECAUSE EVERYONE
WILL KNOW WHAT'S STORY THESE
THEY REFER TO HEAR, AND
EVERYONE WILL KNOW WHETHER
LEAVING OUT, ESPECIALLY WITH
THE RUSSIAN NEWS MEDIA BANNED
FROM USING WORDS LIKE WAR OR
INVASION.
SO, THERE IS THE UN SECURITY
COUNCIL HAS DISCUSS THE
SITUATION IN UKRAINE.
THE WEST CONTINUES TO PUMP
UKRAINE FULL OF ARMS.
THE EUROPEAN UNION IS CLOSING
ITS AIRSPACE TO RUSSIANS.
THE FOREIGN MINISTRY IS WORKING
ON EVACUATING RUSSIAN CITIZENS.
WE ALL KNOW WITH THOSE STORIES
ACTUALLY ARE ABOUT, INCLUDING
TODAY'S OVERWHELMING VOTE
CONDEMNING RUSSIA IN THE UNITED
NATIONS.
AND THAT FOLD WILL NOT BE
REPORTED TO THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE.
>> WELL, IF IT'S REPORTED IT'S
REPORTED IN TERMS OF DERISION
ABOUT HOW THEY ARE AGAINST US
AND WE ARE ISOLATED.
A SENSE OF VICTIMHOOD.
VICTIMHOOD FOR A NATION, REALLY,
LET'S PUT IT THIS WAY, A
DICTATOR WHO IS INVADING A
SOVEREIGN NATION.
THE INTENTION OF NOT ONLY
OCCUPYING IT BUT CHANGING ITS
GOVERNMENT AND DOING VIOLENCE
TO ITS PEOPLE.
BUT THE UNITED STATES HAS HAD
EXPERIENCE IN THIS.
IT WILL NOT END WELL FOR
ANYBODY, BUT MOSTLY WILL NOT
END WELL FOR RUSSIA.
IF RUSSIA DECIDES TO, YOU KNOW,
POUND THE HELL OUT OF KYIV AND
GOD FORBID REPLACE ZELENSKYY AS
PRESIDENT OR KILL HIM, TWO
POSSIBILITIES THAT ARE QUITE
DISTINCT.
YOU WILL HAVE A GUERRILLA WAR
THERE.
UKRAINIANS WILL NOT PUT UP WITH
THIS.
AND THAT IS PARTLY THE
ACHIEVEMENT OF ZELENSKYY'S
RALLY TO THE NATION.
IT'S PARTLY THE ACHIEVEMENT OF
THE SOLIDARITY OF THE WEST,
WHICH COULD NOT NECESSARILY
HAVE BEEN PREDICTED.
WE'VE SEEN GERMAN FULL OF
FOREIGN POLICY TURNED ON IT'S
HERE.
YOU'VE SEEN VIKTOR ORBAN
CRITICIZE RUSSIA, AND EVEN
MORAL AVATARS LIKE THE
INTERNATIONAL IN OLYMPIC
COMMITTEE HAS EVEN ACTED
AGAINST RUSSIA WHEN IT IS
USUALLY SO INCREDIBLY
REACTIONARY.
WHAT'S GOING ON NOW IS RUSSIA
IS ALSO INTERESTING, THE
ECONOMY HAS CRATERED.
DEMONSTRATIONS HAVE TAKEN PLACE
ON THE STREETS, NOT ONLY IN
MOSCOW AND SOME LIBERAL
INTERACTIONS IN THE --
BUT IN MANY MANY RUSSIAN
CITIES.
ALEX IN THE LONNIE HAS CALLED
FOR MORE DEMONSTRATIONS FROM
HIS PRISON CELL.
THIS MAY BE IN THE END, MAYBE
NOT TOMORROW, MAYBE NOT NEXT
MONTH, BUT THIS MAY BE THE END
OF THE PUTIN ERA.
I DON'T WANT TO JUMP TO ANY
CONCLUSIONS AND BE RASH AND
MAKE STUPID PREDICTIONS, BUT
ONE HAS TO ASK WHO IN RUSSIA IS
FOR THIS.
WHO IS REALLY FOR THIS?
EXCEPT SOMEBODY THAT HAS BEEN
ISOLATED AND FILLED WITH ANGER
AND RESENTMENT TOWARDS THE WEST,
AND HIS SET'S ARMY ON UKRAINE.
WHO IS A REALLY FOR?
>> WHAT I WANT TO GO BACK TO
WHAT IVANOVICH TOLD YOU ABOUT
UKRAINE AND HER EXPERIENCE WITH
IT.
BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IT'S
HARD FOR AMERICANS TO DECIDE
HOW SURPRISING IS IT THAT A
COUNTRY IS RISING UP AGAINST AN
INVASION, BECAUSE COUNTRIES
HAVE RISEN UP AGAINST EVASIONS
IN THE PAST.
BUT OTHER COUNTRIES HAVEN'T
REALLY BEEN ABLE TO MUSTER THAT
KIND OF WELL OR BEEN
DISORGANIZED OR NOT UNIFIED IN
RESPONSE TO INVASIONS LIKE
THIS.
AND SO, SHE GAVE US A FRAME
THAT I THINK IS SO IMPORTANT
FOR THIS IN REGARDS OF OUR OWN
COUNTRY AND OUR OWN HISTORY,
SHE TOLD US THAT IT'S A
DEVELOPING DEMOCRACY.
THINK ABOUT WHERE THE U.S. WAS
AFTER JUST 30 YEARS OF
INDEPENDENCE.
IT'S A STRUGGLE.
IT TAKES TIME.
NOT ONLY TO ESTABLISH
INSTITUTIONS BUT ALSO TO
DELIVER THE CULTURE, ESPECIALLY
IF YOU'RE COMING OUT OF A
COMMUNIST STATE, IT'S THE WORK
OF A COUPLE GENERATIONS.
BUT I THINK THEY'VE MADE A LOT
OF PROGRESS.
AND AS WE'VE DISCOVERED HERE IN
THE UNITED STATES RECENTLY, WE
CAN'T TAKE DEMOCRACY FOR
GRANTED.
WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO NURTURE
IT AND DEFEND IT.
AND SO, WHEN YOU THINK OF IT AS
A COUNTRY THAT REALLY IS JUST
IN ITS 30'S, IN ITS EARLY
ADULTHOOD AS IT WERE AS A
COUNTRY, THIS IS ALL THE MORE
REMARKABLE.
>> YOU MENTION AND YOUR VERY
GENEROUS INTRODUCTION THAT I
WAS A MOSCOW CORRESPONDENT FOR
THE WASHINGTON POST.
AND THAT TIME I WOULD GO TO
UKRAINE, AND BY 1989 I WAS ABLE
TO MEET WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE
INDEPENDENT ACTIVISTS.
AND IT WAS A VERY SMALL NUMBER,
THEY WERE VERY BRAVE, THEY ALL
HAD BEEN SENT TO PRISON AT ONE
TIME OR ANOTHER DURING THE
SOVIET PERIOD.
AND THESE WERE MEETINGS IN 1989,
1990, AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT
WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE
BALTIC STATES, IS TONY A, LOT
TRIO, LUKE WAYNE ERA.
AND THEY WERE REALLY
INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENTS THAT
WERE ACTIVE THERE.
BY 1990, THE GROUP CALLED THE
ROOF HAD DEVELOPED AND THEY
WERE THE INDEPENDENT MOVEMENTS
GREW AND GREW.
WHAT COLLAPSE THE SOVIET UNION?
MANY FACTORS, PRINCIPALLY
ECONOMIC, A TECHNOLOGICAL,
SOCIAL.
BUT IN 1991, THE UKRAINIAN
PEOPLE WERE GIVEN A REFERENDUM,
WHETHER THEY WANTED TO BE
INDEPENDENT OR NOT.
OVER 90% OF UKRAINIANS, NOT
JUST PEOPLE IN THE WEST AND IN
LVIV, OR INTELLECTUALS IN KYIV,
BUT ALL OVER THE COUNTRY
INCLUDING THE EAST, WHICH
RUSSIA NOW CLAIMS FOR ITS HELP
VOTED FOR INDEPENDENCE.
AND WEEKS LATER, THAT WAS THE
FINAL STRAW.
WEEKS LATER THE SOVIET UNION
COLLAPSED.
IT WAS OVER.
AN EMPIRE WAS OVER.
AND WHAT PUTIN YEARNS FOR IS
NOT THE RETURN OF COMMUNIST
IDEOLOGY, IN FACT HE'S BEEN
CRITICAL OF LONDON.
IT'S AMAZING TO SEE THIS.
BUT WHAT HE EARNS FOR IS
RUSSIAN EMPIRE, THE RUSSIAN
IMPERIAL.
AND UKRAINE IS CRUCIAL TO THAT,
AND YOU CAN'T HAVE IT.
AND WHAT'S FRIGHTENING ABOUT
THIS, WHAT'S SO DEEPLY
FRIGHTENING, IS JUST THAT THE
MOMENT WHERE HIS COUNTRY IS
UNDER SIEGE ECONOMICALLY
SPEAKING, AND HIS ARMY HAS BEEN
EMBARRASSED AND REALLY
STUMBLING ON ITS WAY TO WHAT
COULD BE A BRUTAL VICTORY IN
THE END.
HE IS IN TROUBLE.
HE HAS BEEN HUMILIATED, BUT THE
PROBLEM IS IS THAT HE HAS
WHAT'S CALLED THE CROSSED OF
GROWTH INTO, THE RED BUTTON.
HE'S HAVE NUCLEAR POWER AND
HE'S NOT BEEN SHY TO ADVERTISE
IT IN RECENT DAYS.
AND OF COURSE, THAT IS A
FIGHTING VERY FRIGHTENING
PROSPECT.
>> DAVID REMNICK, THANK YOU
VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ONCE
AGAIN TONIGHT.
AND PLEASE REJOIN US WHENEVER
YOU CAN.
YOUR COVERAGE IN THE NEW YORKER,