- Let's bring in now Jack Barsky.
He was a KGB agent.
He was spying on the US for a time
during close to the end of the Cold War.
And that was until he was caught by the FBI.
Now he is an American citizen and he is telling
his story in a new book.
It's called "Deep Undercover, My Secret Life
and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB Spy in America."
So you can imagine, this is going to be a pretty
interesting perspective.
Jack, good to have you here this morning.
Thank you very much for joining us.
You became a spy, of course, for the Kremlin.
You were working undercover here in the United States.
You're hearing all the allegations
that are now being made about the election
and how Russia may have tried to influence it.
Do you think it is possible that Russia has actually somehow
infiltrated the White House?
[chuckling]
JACK BARSKY: I don't want to speculate.
Anything is possible in the intelligence realm.
The bottom line, is when it comes to intelligence matters,
the real truth, if it ever comes out,
may take 30, 40, 50 years to come out.
Like for instance what happened in the United States
with regard to Soviet spying in the '40s and '50s
is now pretty much out in the open, but it took a long time.
So today we will not be able to really find the truth.
- All right, so if we can't say verify it or prove it right
now, is it something, and you would know,
is it something that Russia would want to do
and has tried in the past?
JACK BARSKY: It absolutely is, but it's exceedingly difficult.
You know, the Manchurian Candidate, that's fiction.
Let's face it.
It would require a grand conspiracy, which is nearly
impossible to keep secret.
When I was undercover, there were about five
people who knew about me, five.
And we kept it pretty secret.
- Well, so if they can't have a grand conspiracy,
there could be subtle ways.
And what I bring up here is, of course, we know that there have
been connections to various people
that are connected to the President of the United States,
now.
In fact, we're going to show you a flowchart I
believe that gives you a pretty good idea of who is connected
and how.
And what I'm wondering, as you look at this,
and you look at all the various names that are being thrown out
here, does that imply some kind of subtle intrigue
either by buying or connecting to these various members
of the White House and the administration,
of getting in there?
JACK BARSKY: I honestly don't buy into the intrigue.
What I would buy into in a big way,
is the Russians trying to create chaos in this country,
trying to destabilize this country.
And in that matter, they pretty much succeeded.
Because what we are doing now, we're
throwing bombs at each other.
The book of Mark, 2000 years old,
a house divided against itself will not stand, famously
quoted by Abraham Lincoln.
And we are right now very busy dividing our own house.
And if I'm Putin I'm sitting back and I'm enjoying the show.
I think that is quite likely.
And it also has, you know, it has historic precedent.
The other stuff to me, I don't want to speculate.
- So all these sort of, you know,
paid relationships or occasions where
members of the administration have been over in Russia
or they've been paid for this or that, that you don't think
is an attempt to sort of buy a mole or buy somebody?
It's more of just trying to raise
the questions in everyone's mind and plant these seeds of hmm.
JACK BARSKY: Yes.
And there's probably some naivete in play,
particularly with our president, who
was never really in the realm of international politics.
And there's things that can happen that way.
But I just cannot, at this point,
it would be improper for me to go down
that path to speculate anymore.
- Besides dividing the house, is there an ulterior motive
here by Putin?
In other words, there is another grand plan
yet to come and be unveiled.
JACK BARSKY: Well, I think it's not a secret that Putin
and the Russians are trying to rebuild what they lost,
what they fought a long time, never had, and sort of
had for a while under Stalin, which
is the Soviet/Russian empire.
And as long as we're focused on each other and internally
and not focused on that plan, that
gives them more leeway to do things
that we really don't want done.
- Can you give me an idea of just the tactics that would be
employed say today by Russian agents who I presume are here
to cause this destabilization and questioning
in the media and elsewhere?
JACK BARSKY: Oh, sure.
Find friendly folks in the media or people who are influencers
and feed them disinformation.
That's been done historically as long as the KGB existed.
And we now call it fake news.
You know, it's called disinformation.
- So the wiretap information, do you think
that could have been somebody purposely feeding
some journalist or someone?
JACK BARSKY: Whose wiretap information?
- About Donald Trump and Trump Tower.
JACK BARSKY: Possible, possible.
Again, you know, I don't want to join the chorus of speculators.
In the realm of intelligence, there's
very few people who know.
And the more you start speculating about things,
the more you're actually feeding into the folks that are trying
to create that kind of chaos.
- But you do have this obviously really interesting perspective.
And you must watch these events, either how
they unfold in the media or how they are unfolding in the White
House and wonder or think, I see some fingerprints here,
and they go back to Moscow.
JACK BARSKY: Uh, I see--
I was not involved in these kinds of operations.
- Understand.
JACK BARSKY: So I was primarily into political intelligence.
- It's the mindset, I guess I'm going for.
JACK BARSKY: The mindset, absolutely.
If you can, you will probe everywhere you can
and find ways to make a little dent here and there,
absolutely, sure.
- OK.
JACK BARSKY: And they have an army of people who
not only people who are official employees,
but also, you know, collaborators and informants,
and that hasn't changed.
- Should we be worried as a nation,
or just aware and alert?
JACK BARSKY: No, what we should be worried about really
is cyber warfare.
Cyber warfare is the modern, this is pretty much called
war 2.0.
- And Russia would be willing to launch cyber warfare
against the United States?
JACK BARSKY: Not just Russia, others.
And the potential for damage is phenomenal.
Equals, possibly exceeds one or two nuclear bombs.
You could pretty much incapacitate a whole country
if you hack the right systems.
- And you think--
JACK BARSKY: That is what I'm worried about.
I have a background in information technology
besides having been a spy.
And I know a bit about that stuff,
and this is much more dangerous.
And you know, the political wrangling
back and forth, I don't like it, it shouldn't be done,
but that's a fact.
But I think the danger is really for us
to not focus on the real issue, which is cyber warfare.
- Do you think we're being distracted?
JACK BARSKY: Yes, we are.
- Intentionally so?
JACK BARSKY: Yes, we are.
- A frightening thought.
Jack Barsky, thank you very much for joining us.
JACK BARSKY: You're most welcome.
- Welcome, thank you.