>> I THINK >>> ALL RIGHT.
JOINING US NOW FORMER CIA
DIRECTOR JOHN BRENNAN.
SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST
FOR NBC NEWS AND FORMERNATO
SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER JAMES
IS CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY
AND DIPLOMACY ANALYST FOR NBC
NEWS AND MSNBC.
COUNSEL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS AND
AUTHOR OF THE BOOK.
WE’LL TALK ABOUT THAT IN JUST A
MOMENT.
MOMENT. >> LET ME BEGIN WITH YOU.
ALL THAT IS NEW, ALL THAT IS OLD
IS NEW AGAIN.
I MEAN, IF YOU TALKED TO GEORGE
W. BUSH THEY WERE LEAKING ABOUT
ME AT THE CIA AROUND THE CLOCK,
THE STATE DEPARTMENT ALWAYS
LEAKED.
LEAKED. THIS DOES HAPPEN, BUT PERHAPS IN
NOT SUCH A DRAMATIC MANNER.
IS THIS A NEW CHAPTER OR HAVE WE
SEEN IT BEFORE?
>> I WILL TAKE ISSUE WITH YOUR
PREMISE.
PREMISE. I DON’T THINK THEY SAID IT WAS
LEAKING AROUND THE CLOCK.
THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT IT BUT
"NEW YORK TIMES" EDITORIAL IS
NOT A LEAK.
IT IS DEEP CONCERN AND WORRY.
WHAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING
OVER THE LAST YEAR THAT DONALD
TRUMP HAS NOT FULFILLED HIS
RESPONSIBILITIES.
RESPONSIBILITIES. SO Y
SO Y SO, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT THAT ARE
QUITE FRUSTRATE WOULD THE
SITUATION AND NOW TAKING EXTREME
MEASURES TO TRY TO REASSURE THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT THERE ARE
PEOPLE WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION
WHO ARE TRYING TO COUNTER WHAT
DONALD TRUMP IS DOING.
>> ADMIRAL, THERE HAVE BEEN
REPORTS THAT MILITARY LEADERS
HAVE BEEN IGNORING SOME OF THE
PRESIDENT’S MORE OUTRAGEOUS
ORDERS AND WHILE I CELEBRATE
THAT IN 2017/2018 THAT WE DIDN’T
MAKE AN EFFORT.
CIVILIANS CONTROLLING THE
MILITARY.
MILITARY. WHAT DANGEROUS PRECEDENTS SET
HERE?
HERE? >> DYSFUNCTION ALALITY IN A CHAI
OF COMMAND.
OF COMMAND. THAT SHOULD WORRY ALL OF US.
REGARDLESS OF WHO SITS AT THE
TOP YOU WANT A FUNCTIONING
MILITARY BRANCH.
MILITARY BRANCH. >> ADMIRAL, MAY I ASK YOU A
POINTED QUESTION?
POINTED QUESTION? >> SURE.
>> SURE. >> IF YOU WERE IN A POSITION
WHERE SOMEBODY GAVE YOU THE
ORDER TO ASSASSINATE A FOREIGN
LEADER, TO DO SOMETHING THAT YOU
BELIEVED WAS ILLEGAL OR
DANGEROUS, WOULD YOU IGNORE THAT
OORDER?
OORDER? CONFRONT THE PERSON IN THE CHAIN
OF COMMAND OR WOULD YOU RETIRE
AND TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT?
>> I’D TAKE DOOR NUMBER THREE.
AND I THINK AT THE END OF THE
DAY, THERE IS A SPECTRUM OF WHAT
THE ORDER IS.
BUT ASSASSINATING SOMEBODY,
KILLING THEIR FAMILY, DELIBERATE
COLLATERAL DAMAGE.
COLLATERAL DAMAGE. THOSE KIND OF THINGS, I THINK,
SCREAM FOR NOT ONLY WILL I NOT
DO IT AND NOT ONLY WILL I
CONFRONT, BUT YOU HAVE AN
OBLIGATION AS A SENIOR LEADER TO
STEP UP AND MAKE THAT PUBLIC.
>> AND NOT SIMPLY IGNORE THE
ORDER.
ORDER. >> THAT WOULD BE MY VIEW.
>> WOULDN’T THAT BE THE VIEW OF
MOST OF THE MEN AND WOMEN YOU
SERVED WITH IN THE NAVY?
>> I THINK SO.
AGAIN, THERE IS A SPECTRUM HERE.
BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY ANY
LEADER IN ANY POSITION HAS THE
RESPONSIBILITY TO ILLUMINATE A
SITUATION WHEN THINGS ARE GOING
OFF THE RAILS.
AND I WOULD ARGUE DOING SO IN A
PUBLIC WAY DOES A GREAT SERVICE
TO THE COUNTRY.
>> I THINK IT’S MUCH MORE
COMPLICATED.
COMPLICATED. THAT TO ME IS NOT THE HARD CASE.
IMAGINE TOMORROW PRESIDENT TRUMP
CALLS HIS SENIOR PEOPLE AND GAVE
THEM THE ORDER TO ATTACK NORTH
KOREA.
KOREA. HE COULD SAY THAT KIM HAS
VIOLATED HIS COMMITMENTS HE MADE
AT THE SUMT AND HE BELIEVES A
PREVENTIVE MILITARY STRIKE.
YOU MIGHT THINK IT’S A REALLY
BAD IDEA.
BAD IDEA. IT’S NOT ILLEGAL.
IT’S WITHIN THE SPECTRUM OF
FOREIGN POLICY POSSIBILITIES.
THAT SEEMS TO ME THE MORE NOT
UNREALISTIC SCENARIO THAT WE
COULD BE FACING.
HE WANTS TO DO SOMETHING BIG,
CONSEQUENTIAL THAT YOU MAY THINK
IS BAD FOR THE INTEREST OF THE
UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL, THOUGH, AND
NOT OFF THE FOREIGN POLICY
SPECTRUM.
SPECTRUM. WE COULD FACE SOMETHING LIKE
THAT.
THAT. >> WHAT ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT
ADMIRALS AND GENERALS MAKE
DECISIONS UNILATERALLY?
DECISIONS UNILATERALLY? ISN’T THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING
RIGHT NOW, INSUBORDINATION UP
AND DOWN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.
>> PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE ARE
WILLING TO WORK WITH THIS BUT
WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS
EXACTLY RIGHT.
EXACTLY RIGHT. IT’S NOT A DANGEROUS PRECEDENT
AND UNLIKE NIXON, WHEN PEOPLE
WOULD DO THINGS ABOUT NIXON.
WE FOUND OUT LATER.
WE NOW HAVE A FEEDBACK LOOP
WHERE THIS PRESIDENT KNOWS THAT
PEOPLE AROUND HIM ARE ACTIVELY
SU.
SU. >> DOING A DISSERVICE TO NO ONE
EXCEPT THE PERSON WHO WROTE THE
OP-ED SO THEY COULD WRITE A BOOK
OR ARTICLE LATER.
>> HEIGHTENED ALL THE
CHARACTERISTICS SS DESCRIBED IN
THIS BOOK.
THIS BOOK. DIRECTOR BRENNAN, GIVEN THIS
CONVERSATION RIGHT HERE.
LET ME ASK YOU THE QUESTION I
POSED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE
SHOW.
SHOW. DOES THIS ANONYMOUS OP-ED PUT
TOGETHER WITH THE WOODWARD BOOK
MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER OR WORSE
ABOUT THE STATE OF THE WHITE
HOUSE AND THE STATE OF THE
COUNTRY?
COUNTRY? ARE YOU TERRIFIED THAT WE HAVE A
PRESIDENT LIKE THIS SITTING IN
THE OVAL OFFICE OR SOMEHOW
REASSURED THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH
PEOPLE AROUND HIM PERFORMING AN
ACT OF BEING GUARD RAILS,
EFFECTIVELY.
EFFECTIVELY. >> I SUSPECTED THAT THINGS WERE
GOING TO GET WORSE BEFORE THEY
GET BETTER AND, INDEED, WE’RE IN
THE WORSENING POINT.
WHERE SOME SENIOR ADMINISTRATION
OFFICIAL, ACCORDING TO "NEW YORK
TIMES," TOOK THIS EXTRAORDINARY
STEP AND I DO HAVE GREAT
CONCERNS ABOUT IT AND DONALD
TRUMP CONTINUES TO BE IN THE
OVAL OFFICE AND SIT ATOP OF AN
ADMINISTRATION THAT IS NOT
FOLLOWING SOME OF HIS ORDERS AND
RECKLESS
RECKLESS RECKLESSNESS.
RECKLESSNESS. WE ARE IN EXTRAORDINARY TIMES.
I THINK THE McCAIN FUNERAL THAT
REALLY UNDERSCORED TO THE NATION
THE IMPORTANCE OF THE AMERICAN
VALUES NOT BEING FOLLOWED BY
DONALD TRUMP AND THE WOODWARD
BOOK AND NOW THIS.
IT MAY REACH THE TIPPING POINT.
WHAT THE TIPPING POINT IS, I
DON’T KNOW.
DON’T KNOW. SHOULD BE A WAKE-UP CALL TO THE
ADMINISTRATION AND THE CONGRESS
THAT THIS IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE
SITUATION ESPECIALLY FOR A
COUNTRY LIKE THE UNITED STATES
THAT HAS SUCH GLOBAL
RESPONSIBILITIES.
RESPONSIBILITIES. >> THAT IS WHAT I WOULD TAKE IT.
HOW DOES THIS LOOK IN MOSCOW AND
BEIJING?
BEIJING? THIS LOOKS REALLY GOOD.
HOW DOES THIS LOOK IN BRUSSELS
FOR THE NATO ALLIANCE?
THIS IS A DISASTER.
IT’S JUST EXACTLY AS JOHN SAYS.
THIS IS THAT CUMULATIVE EFFECT
THAT IS POISONING OUR DOMESTIC
WELL, BUT IT’S SEEPING INTO THE
GROUND OF THE INTERNATIONAL
SYSTEM.
SYSTEM. >> EVEN ROBERT MUELLER IS
CONCERNED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF
HAVING DONALD TRUMP’S TESTIMONY
BEFORE HIM GO PUBLIC BECAUSE IT
WOULD SO DAMAGE THE UNITED
STATES’ REPUTATION ACROSS THE
BOARD.
BOARD. MIKA, I REMEMBER ABOUT SIX
MONTHS AGO YOU SAID PRIVATELY
AND THEN YOU TALKED ABOUT IT ON
THE SHOW.
THE SHOW. YOU’RE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT
TRUMP’S, BUT IN RESPONSE TO
TRUMP EITHER FROM THE INTEL
COMMUNITY OR THE MILITARY
COMMUNITY OR FROM THE MEDIA THAT
THE OVERREACH THAT WOULD COME IN
RESPONSE TO DONALD TRUMP’S
BEHAVIOR WOULD ACTUALLY CREATE A
GREATER CRISIS.
GREATER CRISIS. IS THIS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT?
>> IT IS FAR MORE DANGEROUS THAN
IT MIGHT FEEL RIGHT NOW.
AS YOU SAID, DIRECTOR BRENNAN,
THE WORSE IS COMING.
AND THE ADMIRAL POINTED OUT THAT
DOOR THREE WOULD BE THE OPTION.
QUIT, SPEAK OUT AS A SERVICE TO
AMERICA.
AMERICA. NOBODY IS CHOOSING DOOR THREE.
>> NOBODY.
>> NOBODY. >> AND I THINK WHILE YOU THINK
YOU’RE DOING THE RIGHT THING,
WHAT YOU’RE ACTUALLY DOING IS
HELPING PRESIDENT TRUMP DO WHAT
MADELINE ALBRIGHT THINKS HE’S
DOING WHICH IS BREAKING DOWN THE
PRESIDENCY AND CREATING
SOMETHING FAR DIFFERENT THAT
WE’VE SEEN IN OTHER COUNTRIES
AND WE DON’T WANT HERE IN THE
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
MIKE BARNICLE IS WITH US AND HE
HAS A QUESTION.
MIKE.
MIKE. >> WELL, THESE PAST FEW MINUTES
OF THIS DISCUSSION HAVE BEEN,
AGAIN, STUNNING TO ME, WE’RE
TALKING ABOUT THE PRESIDENCY.
WE’RE TALKING ABOUT A SITTING
PRESIDENT WHO HAS BEEN DESCRIBED
AS A MORAL, PETTY, INEFFECTIVE
AND JOHN BRENNAN WOULD SEEM NOW
THAT WE’RE AT A POINT WHERE
PUBLIC SERVANTS, YOU WERE AT THE
CIA FOR YEARS AND NSA FOR YEARS
CONSCIOUS MIGHT TAKE PRECEDENCE
OVER THE OATH OF OFFICE YOU TAKE
AND OTHERS MIGHT TAKE WHEN
YOU’RE SURROUNDED BY A PRESIDENT
THAT MIGHT TAKE THE COUNTRY
RIGHT OFF THE RAILS.
>> WELL, IT’S AGAINST THE LAW TO
FOLLOW AN ORDER THAT YOU KNOW IS
ILLEGAL.
ILLEGAL. AND, SO, I THINK THIS IS AN
OBLIGATION ON ALL ADMINISTRATION
OFFICIALS TO RESIST SOMETHING
LIKE THAT.
LIKE THAT. MAY HAVE A DISASTROUS FUTURE TO
IT IN TERMS OF IMPACTING THE
UNITED STATES.
UNITED STATES. I THINK IT DOES REQUIRE
INDIVIDUALS OF CONSCIOUS TO BE
ABLE TO PUSH BACK AGAINST SUCH
AN ORDER AND TO TRY TO RESIST
IT.
IT. I THINK WE HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES OF
JIM MATTIS AND OTHERS DOING
EXACTLY THAT.
EXACTLY THAT. BUT THEN IF YOU FEEL THAT YOU
CANNOT MAKE HEADWAY AGAINST
DONALD TRUMP IN TERMS OF TURNING
HIM AROUND, AN OBLIGATION TO GO
TO CONGRESS.
TO CONGRESS. THIS IS WHY IT’S SO, SO
IMPORTANT FOR THE CONGRESS.
TO PUT THE INTEREST OF THE
COUNTRY OBSERVE THE INTEREST OF
THE PARTY.
THE PARTY. THE CONGRESS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A
CHECK ON THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE.
IF THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE IS GOING
TO BE GIVING ORDERS THAT ARE
GOING TO LEAD US DOWN A
DISASTROUS PATH, WE NEED TO GET
THE CONGRESS INVOLVED AND NEED
TO BE ABLE TO STOP SUCH ACTIONS.
>> YOU KNOW, WILLIE, I MEAN, IN
THIS CASE, HE’S BEEN THE HEDGEMG
HOG, IT ONLY TAKES TWO
REPUBLICANS, IT ONLY TAKES TWO
REPUBLICANS, IT ONLY TAKES ONE
REPUBLICAN, IT ONLY TAKES ONE
REPUBLICAN AND SAYS REPEATEDLY
ALL THESE REPUBLICAN SENATORS
WILL GO ON THE FLOOR AND DELIVER
ELOQUENT SPEECHES ABOUT
CONSTITUTIONAL NORMS BEING
TRASHED OR DONALD TRUMP’S
BEHAVIOR.
BEHAVIOR. IT ONLY TAKES ONE OF YOU TO SAY,
I’M GOING TO BRING THIS TO AN
END RIGHT NOW.
I’M GOING TO CAUCUS WITH THE
DEMOCRATS OR I’M GOING TO VOTE
AGAINST THE PRESIDENT’S
LEGISLATION UNTIL HE PUTS
SOMETHING IN PLACE THAT ASSURES
A, B, C.
A, B, C. THE RULE OF LAW IS RESPECTED.
OUR FOREIGN POLICY IS HANDLED IN
A RESPONSIBLE WAY.
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN WILL STAND UP
AND DO THAT.
NOT ONE REPUBLICAN.
>> WELL, WE’VE HEARD SOME
REPUBLICANS SPEAK OUT.
MOST OF THEM WERE LEAVING TOWN
IN TWO MONTHS.
THEIR SENATE CAREERS ARE OVER.
THE PROPOSAL WAS PUT OUT TO
PROTECT BOB MUELLER THROUGH
LEGISLATION.
LEGISLATION. THAT WAS SHOT DOWN BY THE
MAJORITY LEADER.
MAJORITY LEADER. NO APPETITE FOR THAT TYPE OF
THING IN THE SENATE.
JOHN MEACHAM, TO ME, THE
EXTRAORDINARY THING AS YOU
POINTED OUT EARLIER IS THAT WE
ARE 20 MONTHS INTO THE
ADMINISTRATION AND WE’RE SEEING
THIS KIND OF MELTDOWN AROUND THE
PRESIDENT AND NOW FROM A SENIOR
ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL, WE
DON’T KNOW WHO OR FROM WHAT PART
OF THE GOVERNMENT.
THIS IS NOT SOME BOOK WRITTEN
FIVE YEARS OR TEN YEARS AFTER.
THIS IS HAPPENING IN REALTIME A
YEAR AND A HALF INTO THE FIRST
TERM OF THIS PRESIDENCY.
>> IT’S AS THOUGH WE HAVE A KIND
OF VIRTUAL WEB CAM INSIDE THE
OVAL OFFICE.
OVAL OFFICE. YOU KNOW, IF THE FINAL DAYS HAD
PLAYED OUT AS REALITY TV AND,
SO, WE DON’T HAVE THE
PERSPECTIVE.
PERSPECTIVE. AND I THINK THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT
THIS IS WE HAVE THE INFORMATION,
REGISTERED VOTERS HAVE THIS
INFORMATION AS THEY HEAD INTO
NOVEMBER AND THEN AS WE HEAD
INTO 2020.
INTO 2020. QUICK QUESTION FOR DIRECTOR
BRENNAN, SIR, YOU WERE IN THE
BUSINESS FOR A LONG TIME OF
PREPARING PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILES
OF FOREIGN LEADERS.
IF YOU WERE PREPARING -- YOU
COULD SEE WHERE THIS IS GOING.
IF YOU WERE BRIEFING AN AMERICAN
PRESIDENT ON THIS AMERICAN
PRESIDENT, WHAT WOULD BE THE TOP
LINE OF YOUR PSYCHOLOGICAL
PROFILE?
PROFILE? >> THAT AS WE ANTICIPATED, THIS
INDIVIDUAL IS GOING TO BE FACING
INCREASING PRESSURE FROM WITHIN.
AND THAT THE WALLS ARE
COLLAPSING AROUND AND HIS MU
RECKLESS NATURE MIGHT LEAD HIM
TO DO SOMETHING RASH AND
DISTRACT ATTENTION FROM HIS
PROBLEMS, HIS DOMESTIC PROBLEMS.
WE’VE SEEN THIS BEHAVIOR BEFORE
WHO WILL CONTINUE TO OPPRESS AND
SUPPRESS AND REMOVE ANY THREATS
THAT HE OR SHE SEES THAT ARE
RISING ON THE POLITICAL SCENE.
BUT I WOULDN’T RULE OUT THAT
THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME TYPE
OF EFFORT TO ENGAGE IN SOME TYPE
OF ACTION THAT WILL DISTRACT
ATTENTION FROM HIS POLITICAL
PROBLEMS.
PROBLEMS. >>BETTER WHEN HE
SAYS IT.
SAYS IT. >> I THINK WHAT IS ALSO MISSING
IS DONALD TRUMP HAS NOW BEEN
PUBLICLY CHALLENGED ABOUT HIS
ABILITY TO EXECUTE HIS OFFICE.
THAT’S WHAT THIS OP-ED IS.
WE ARE BASICALLY SAYING WE’RE
UNDERMINING YOUR PRESIDENCY FROM
WITHIN.
WITHIN. THE QUESTION NOW IS WHETHER HE
CAN RESIST THE TEMPTATION OR
WHAT HE MIGHT SEE AS THE NEED TO
REASSERT PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY
AGAINST PEOPLE FROM WITHIN THAT
ARE WORKING AGAINST HIM.
THAT’S WHY THIS OP-ED IS
DANGEROUS.
DANGEROUS. PUTS PUBLIC PRESSURE ON THIS
PRESIDENT TO RESPOND AND SAY,
ALMOST, HEY, I AM IN CHARGE
HERE.
HERE. >> AND THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM
HAVE GOT TO ASK THEMSELVES, WHEN
DO I STOP BEING A GUARDRAIL AND
BECOME AN ENABLER.
THAT IS THE GUT QUESTION FOR A
LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE WHITE HOUSE
THIS MORNING.
THIS MORNING. >> THE WOUNDED LINE IS VERY
DANGEROUS AND HE IS VERY
WOUNDED.
WOUNDED. >> AND WHAT DONALD TRUMP STILL
DOESN’T UNDERSTAND IS THAT
PRESIDENTS AREN’T DICTATORS.
I REMEMBER DURING THE CAMPAIGN
HE WOULD SAY, I’M GOING TO MAKE
PAUL RYAN’S LIFE VERY DIFFICULT.
I’M GOING TO DO THIS.
I’M GOING TO DO THAT.
WE WOULD LAUGH AND SAY, YOU DO
UNDERSTAND THAT PAUL RYAN HAS A
CHECKBOOK.
CHECKBOOK. SAYING THAT JUDGES DON’T HAVE
THE LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY TO
QUESTION HIS PRESIDENTIAL
ORDERS.
ORDERS. SO-CALLED JUDGES.
SO-CALLED JUDGES. HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN
HE STARTS FIRING JAMES MATTIS
AND WHEN HE STARTS FIRING JEFF
SESSIONS AND WHEN HE STARTS
FIRING ANYBODY THAT HE CAN FIRE
IN RETRIBUTION TO THISSARD ARDTI
AND WOODWARD BOOK THAT THE
SENATE IS NOT GOING TO CONFIRM
AN ATTORNEY GENERAL TO HIS
LIKING.
LIKING. AND THIS, AT THE END OF THE DAY,
DIRECTOR BRENNAN, IT’S THE
IGNORANCE.
IGNORANCE. IT IS THE IGNORANCE OF NOT ONLY
THE OFFICE HE HOLDS, BUT OF
GOVERNMENT.
GOVERNMENT. HE HAS NO, HE HAD NO IDEA WHAT
HE WAS STEPPING IN TO AND FROM
EVERYBODY THAT HAS BEEN CLOSE TO
HIM, THAT HAS TRIED TO HELP HIM
ALONG TO EXPLAIN TO HIM HOW THE
UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
WORKS, HOW CHECKS AND BALANCES
WORK.
WORK. IT’S JUST COMPLETELY
DISINTERESTED.
DISINTERESTED. >> IT’S ALL THOSE THINGS
COMBINED IN ONE.
WE ARE AT A DANGEROUS POINT IN
OUR HISTORY AND HOW THIS PLAYS
OUT IN THE COMING DAYS, WEEKS
AND MONTHS, I THINK, WILL
DETERMINE JUST HOW MUCH HARM IS
DONE TO THIS COUNTRY BEFORE WE
GET BACK ON THE RIGHT COURSE.
>> FORMER CIA DIRECTOR JOHN
BRENNAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, MR.
DIRECTOR.
DIRECTOR. >>> STILL AHEAD, RICHARD HAAS
WAS --
WAS -- >> THEY ALL FELL ASLEEP.
>> I WAS WATCHING WITH BATED
BREATH ON CSPAN.
I HAD TWO MONSTERESITORS GOING.
OKAY, SO, WHILE HE WAS DOING
THAT TALKING ABOUT THE
IMPORTANCE OF NATO, PRESIDENT
TRUMP WAS QUESTIONING THE COST
IN AN INTERVIEW WITH "DAILY