RELATIONS, RICHARD HAASS, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR, MIKE BARNICLE,
WHITE HOUSE REPORTER FOR THE
ASSOCIATED PRESS, JONATHAN
LEMIRE, AND PROUD TO WELCOME TO
THE TABLE, FORMER DEFENSE
SECRETARY, RETIRED FOUR STAR
MARINE GENERAL JAMES MATTIS, AND
FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF
DEFENSE FOR INTERNATIONAL
SECURITY AFFAIRS UNDER PRESIDENT
REAGAN, THEY ARE COAUTHORS OF
THE NEW BOOK ENTITLED "CALL SIGN
CHAOS", LEARNING TO LEAD AND WE
WELCOME YOU BOTH TO THE SHOW.
>> GREAT TO HAVE YOU HERE.
BY THE WAY, BARNICLE, THEY HAVE
A HISTORY HERE.
>> I KNOW THAT.
THIS IS A TERRIBLE PROBLEM.
TERRIBLE PROBLEM.
TERRIBLE PROBLEM. >> THANK YOU BOTH FOR COMING IN.
>> SO WHY DON’T WE -- YOU KNOW,
LET’S JUST, WE’LL THROW THE
SOFTBALL TO YOU FIRST, WHY DID
YOU WRITE THE BOOK?
>> I WAS VERY FORTUNATE, TO TELL
YOU THE TRUTH, I WAS ABLE TO
LEAD 40 SAILORS AND MARINES, A
SECOND LIEUTENANT, 21 YEARS OLD,
AND HAVE NCOs TEACH ME
LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLES,
LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLES, EVENTUALLY I COMMANDED A QUARTER
MILLION U.S. AND ALLIED TROOPS
ACROSS THE MIDDLE EAST AND I
LEARNED A LOT ABOUT LEADERSHIP
FROM DIRECT LEADERSHIP TO
STRATEGIC, AND WHEN YOU GET TO
MY COLOR HAIR, YOU WANT TO PASS
ON THE LESSONS LEARNED.
>> WHAT’S SO INTERESTING IS AS
YOU’RE READING YOUR BOOK,
CIVILIANS THINK THE MARINES ARE
BUTTON DOWN, YOU FOLLOW ORDERS,
BUT YOU KEPT TALKING TIME AND
TIME AGAIN ABOUT INITIATIVE,
INGENUITY, YOU KEPT TALKING
ABOUT ACTUALLY BREAKING OUT OF
THE MOLD, AND ONE OF THE MOST
IMPORTANT LEADERSHIP QUALITIES
YOU COULD HAVE IS NOT STIFLING
CREATIVITY.
CREATIVITY. EXPLAIN HOW THAT FITS IN, PRETTY
TOUGH BUTTON DOWN CULTURE.
>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THE MARINES
ARE VERY DISCIPLINED BUT THEY’RE
NOT VERY REGIMENTED, THEY ARE
SOME OF THE MOST UNREGIMENTED
THINKERS I HAVE BEEN AROUND AND
WHAT THE LEADERS JOB IS TO SET
THE ULTIMATE VISION, MAKE
CERTAIN YOU SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO
ACCOMPLISH, AND THEN WHEN YOU
DEFINE IT IN VERY CLEAR TERMS,
YOU BACK OFF, TAKE YOUR HANDS
OFF THE STEERING WHEEL, AND LET
YOUNG PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE
TRAINED USE THEIR INITIATIVE,
USE THEIR AGGRESSIVENESS, TO
CARRY IT OUT.
AND THEY WILL SURPRISE YOU WITH
THEIR INGENUITY, THEY WILL GRAB
OPPORTUNITIES THAT YOU COULD NOT
POSSIBLY HAVE SEEN FROM YOUR
REMOTE LOCATION.
REMOTE LOCATION. IT’S A WONDERFUL WAY TO GET
OWNERSHIP FOR ANY MISSION.
I DON’T CARE IF YOU’RE IN
BUSINESS OR ON THE BATTLEFIELD
OR ON THE FOOTBALL FIELD, YOU
WANT INITIATIVE BY YOUR YOUNG
PEOPLE.
PEOPLE. YOU DON’T WANT TO STIFLE IT.
>> WE’RE NOT GOING TO GET THE
ANSWER FROM THE GENERAL ON THIS
ONE, SO I’LL SAY TO YOU, YOU ALL
WROTE DOWN THE THREE C’S FOR
LEADERSHIP, AND IT WAS COMP
TENSE --
TENSE -- COMPETENCE, BE GOOD IN THE
BASICS, KNOW WHAT THE NUCLEAR
TRIAD IS BUT BE GOOD IN THE
BASICS, SECONDLY CARING, TEDDY
ROOSEVELT, I LOVE THE QUOTE,
PEOPLE DON’T CARE WHAT YOU KNOW
UNTIL THEY KNOW THAT YOU CARE.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. >> THAT DOESN’T SOUND LIKE A LOT
OF LEADERS WE HAVE IN
WASHINGTON, D.C.
WASHINGTON, D.C. >> WELL, THEN YOU COME TO THE
THIRD ONE, CONVICTION.
>> RIGHT.
>> RIGHT. >> YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT THAT
LEADER STANDS FOR, AND THE
REASON I WANTED TO WRITE THIS
BOOK IS BECAUSE I SPENT A COUPLE
OF DECADES ON THE BATTLEFIELDS
WITH JIM, AND HE WAS ALWAYS AT
THE FRONT, BUT THE TROOPS KNEW
THAT HE WAS GOING TO WIN THOSE
BATTLES THAT HE WAS SENT IN FOR,
AND HE WAS GOING TO DO THE BEST
HE COULD FOR THEM.
AND THEY GOT THAT.
HE WAS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF
THEM.
THEM. BUT HE WAS GOING TO GET THAT
MISSION DONE.
MISSION DONE. TIME AND TIME AGAIN I SAW HIM AT
THE FRONT, AND I THOUGHT THIS
CAN MAKE AN INTERESTING BOOK
ABOUT HOW HE LED, EVEN WHEN YOU
HAD POLICY CHAOS.
WE WENT THROUGH THREE
PRESIDENTS, IT WASN’T JUST
PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT BUSH
AND PRESIDENT OBAMA, ALL THREE
OF THEM TOOK ON MORE THAN THEY
SHOULD HAVE TAKEN ON.
>> CAN WE STOP RIGHT THERE.
LET ME OPEN THIS UP TO BOTH OF
YOU ALL.
YOU ALL. BECAUSE AS YOU SAY AT THE END,
WE LIVE IN A TRIBALIZED CULTURE,
IF I TALK BADLY ABOUT PRESIDENT
TRUMP, MY RELATIVES DON’T TALK
TO ME.
TO ME. IF I TALK BADLY ABOUT BARACK
OBAMA, I GOT OTHER PEOPLE WHO
DON’T TALK TO ME.
IT’S JUST, WE’RE SO TRIBAL,
NOBODY SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO STEP
BACK.
BACK. I WANT IT TALK ABOUT THE LAST 19
YEARS, BECAUSE IN 2000, WE WERE
REALLY AT THE HEIGHT OF OUR
POWER.
POWER. PROBABLY IN OUR HISTORY.
WE STOOD ALONE IN 2000.
THE LAST 19 YEARS, WE HAD ONE
FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER AFTER
ANOTHER, ALL EITHER OVERREACH
AFTER 9/11 OR OVERREACTION TO
THE OVERREACH.
THE OVERREACH. LET’S TALK ABOUT THE PAST 19
YEARS BECAUSE YOU ALL ARE
CRITICAL, RIGHTLY, OF THE LAST
THREE PRESIDENTS.
THREE PRESIDENTS. >> I THINK JOE WHAT YOU’RE
POINTING OUT, I WOULD AGREE WITH
AS FAR AS THE DEFINITION OF THE
PROBLEM BUT FOR ONE WORD WHERE
YOU SAID WE STOOD ALONE.
OUR ALLIANCES WERE A BIG PART OF
WHY WE STOOD ASTRIDE THE WORLD
MODEL FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW, AND
WE HAVE BEEN ON MANY
BATTLEFIELDS, I WAS PRIVILEGED
TO FIGHT MANY TIMES FOR THE
GREAT BIG EXPERIMENT WE CALL
AMERICA AND I WOULD JUST TELL
YOU I WAS NEVER ON A CROWDED
BATTLEFIELD.
BATTLEFIELD. I WAS NEVER OUT THERE WITHOUT
ALLIES.
ALLIES. WHEN I WENT INTO AFGHANISTAN A
COUPLE OF MONTHS AFTER THIS TOWN
WAS HIT, AFTER SOME MANIACS
ATTACKED THIS TOWN AND KILLED
3,000 INNOCENT PEOPLE FROM 91
COUNTRIES, WE WERE IN FIGHTING
IN THE DUST BOWL OF AFGHANISTAN
AND RIGHT ALONGSIDE US, JOINING
US WERE TROOPS FROM CANADA AND
THE UNITED KINGDOM, AND NORWAY.
>> IF I MAY, LET ME RESTATE THAT
BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY IT’S SOMETHING
WE TALK ABOUT EVERY DAY THAT
WE’RE ONLY AS STRONG AS OUR
ALLIANCES, BUT THE UNITED STATES
WAS, I MEAN, WE WERE EXTHE
RECORD FAIRLY-- EXTRAORDINARILY
POWERFUL, A BIPOLAR WORLD TO
WHERE WE WERE FIRST AMONG
EQUALS.
EQUALS. THAT’S CHANGED OVER THE PAST 19
YEARS.
YEARS. WE CAN START WITH WHAT HAPPENED
IN 2002, WHEN THEY WERE TELLING
YOU A WAR WAS GOING TO START UP
IN IRAQ, AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT
WHAT HAPPENED AFTER WE
SUPPOSEDLY WON THAT WAR, AND YOU
KNOW, WE HAD BREMER DO WHAT HE
DID.
DID. >> WELL, I THINK.
>> GO AHEAD, BING.
>> I WAS GOING TO SAY THAT IT
STRUCK ME BECAUSE AFTER I SPENT
YEARS IN VIETNAM, THAT WE GOT
INTO THIS THING IN AFGHANISTAN
AND IRAQ, I THOUGHT RICHARD AND
JIM AND MIKE, AND NIN KIND OF A
SLOPPY MANNER, JIM USED TO SPEND
DAYS ON REHEARSALS ENSURING
EVERYONE KNEW WHAT WE WERE DOING
AND WHY WE WERE DOING IT, AND IT
SEEMED TO ME THAT AT THE TOP,
POLICY WAS MADE WILLY NILLY BY
PEOPLE NOT TAKING THE TIME TO BE
ABLE TO EXPLAIN THAT POLICY TO
THAT CORPORAL WHO WAS GOING TO
GO OUT ON THAT BATTLEFIELD AND
RISK HIS LIFE, THAT I DIDN’T
THINK THE PEOPLE AT THE POLICY
LEVEL WERE TAKING THE TIME TO
GET THEIR MESSAGE RIGHT.
JIM?
JIM? >> WELL, THIS IS A PROBLEM NOT
JUST WITH ANY ONE
ADMINISTRATION.
ADMINISTRATION. I THINK IT’S A PROBLEM THAT
CROSSES THE WESTERN DEMOCRACY’S
RIGHT NOW, THEY HAVE TROUBLE
BELIEVING THAT THEIR VALUES ARE
WORTH DEFENDING AND IF YOU
ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO INTO A
FIGHT, YOU HAVE TO CHOOSE HOW TO
FIGHT, AND YOU HAVE TO DETERMINE
TO WIN THE FIGHT.
YOU CAN’T GO IN AND THEN SAY,
WHOA, THIS WAS A MISTAKE,
SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
WHEN YOU TAKE THAT GRAVE
DECISION, IT’S GOT TO BE FOR A
SOUND REASON.
SOUND REASON. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A STRATEGIC
PURPOSE, A POLICY, AND LIKE BING
SAID, WE DID NOT RIGOROUSLY LOOK
AT THE PROBLEM.
WE DID NOT DEFINE THE PROBLEM
SUFFICIENTLY.
SUFFICIENTLY. >> IN IRAQ.
>> WE DIDN’T DEFINE A NUMBER OF
PROBLEMS.
PROBLEMS. I THINK IT STARTS IN THE 1990s
WHEN WE EXPAND NATO, AND I’M NOT
SURE THAT WE’VE REALLY EXAMINED
THE SECOND ORDER OF CONSEQUENCES
OF EXPANDING NATO IN THE WAY WE
DID.
DID. I’M NOT AGAINST EXPANDING IT,
BUT I THINK IF YOU WERE TO GO
BACK TO THE ROOT CAUSE, TAKE A
LOOK AT HOW WE TEACH HISTORY ON
UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES TODAY.
I DON’T THINK WE’RE PREPARING
YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN FOR
LEADERSHIP HISTORICALLY INFORMED
LEADERSHIP BECAUSE HISTORY MAY
NOT BE PERFECT, BUT IT’S THE
ONLY GUIDE WE HAVE.
IT WILL LIGHT THE PATH AHEAD,
AND AT LEAST TELL YOU TWO
THINGS, HOW DID PEOPLE BEFORE
YOU DEAL WITH SOMETHING
SUCCESSFULLY, AND
SUCCESSFULLY, AND UNSUCCESSFULLY.
UNSUCCESSFULLY. NOW YOU KNOW THE RIGHT QUESTIONS
TO ASK WHEN YOU HIT THESE
INFLECTION POINTS THAT YOU WERE
REFERRING TO.
REFERRING TO. >> IF YOU CAN’T READ, MIKE, YOU
CAN’T LEAD.
CAN’T LEAD. >> AND THE HISTORY ELEMENT OF
THIS, WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT
IT FOR DECADES.
ALMOST A DECADE NOW, BUT THE
LACK OF HISTORY BEING TAUGHT
CHILDREN IN GRAMMAR SCHOOL,
AMERICAN HISTORY, OUR HISTORY.
NEVER MIND COLLEGE, GRAMMAR
SCHOOL, HIGH SCHOOL, BUT IN THIS
THEME, BEFORE WE GET TO THE
REDUNDANCY OF YOU SAYING YOU’RE
NOT GOING TO SPEAK ABOUT TRUMP,
I’D LIKE TO ASK.
>> HEY, MIKE, DON’T KILL HAMLET
IN THE FIRST ACT.
THERE’S A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO
CAN’T WAIT TO HEAR HIM DISH.
>> OFF OF THE DISCUSSION THAT
JOE IS HAVING WITH THE TWO OF
YOU IN THE PROCESS OF COMING UP
WITH SOME SORT OF WITHDRAWAL
FORMULA FOR THE UNITED STATES
TROOPS REMAINING IN AFGHANISTAN.
HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU ABOUT AN
ELEMENT THAT PEOPLE DON’T
UNDERSTAND CALLED FORCE
PROTECTION IN TERMS OF THE
TROOPS WHO ARE THERE NOW,
WITHDRAWING THOSE TROOPS, TO
AGREE WITH WHAT’S BEING DONE
RIGHT NOW?
RIGHT NOW? >> WELL, MIKE, I DON’T KNOW
ENOUGH ABOUT THE SPECIFICS AND
THE BACK CHATTER THAT’S GOING
ON, THE NEGOTIATIONS TO COMMENT
ABOUT THAT.
ABOUT THAT. FORCED PROTECTION, THE MILITARY
WILL TAKE CARE OF FORCED
PROTECTION.
PROTECTION. IT WILL BE AS GOOD AS THEY CAN
MAKE IT UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES
THEY’RE DEALT, BUT I THINK, TOO,
IN THIS TOWN IN 1984, SECRETARY
OF STATE GEORGE SCHULTZ GAVE A
TALK ABOUT TERRORISM, AND THAT’S
WHAT’S GOT TO INFORM US TODAY,
AND HE SAID TERRORISM IS GOING
TO BE WITH US.
IT’S FGGOING TO COST US INNOCENT
PEOPLE IN OUR TROOPS’ LIVES.
IT’S AN AMBIENT THREAT TODAY.
17 YEARS AFTER GEORGE SCHULTZ
SAID THAT, 9/11 HAPPENS RIGHT
HERE IN THIS TOWN.
NOW, WE WANT WON A WAR OVER,
DECLARE THE WAR OVER, BUT THE
ENEMY GETS A VOTE, AND THE
BOTTOM LINE IS, ANY NEGOTIATION
LIKE THIS HAS GOT TO
ACCOMMODATE, AND TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT THE ENEMY’S VOTE.
WHAT IS THE ENEMY GOING TO DO.
THAT’S JUST THE REALITY WE LIVE
IN.
IN. I WOULD LIKE TO BRING MORE
POSITIVE MESSAGE TO YOU AND SAY,
WELL, YOU KNOW, IT’S ALL GOING
TO BE OVER AND WE’RE GOING TO
LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER AND WE
SAW WHAT HAPPENED WHEN THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY WARNED
PRESIDENT OBAMA THAT IF YOU PULL
ALL THE TROOPS OUT OF IRAQ, YOU
WILL HAVE TO GO BACK IN FOR OUR
INTERESTS AND THAT’S EXACTLY
WHAT HAPPENED.
WHAT HAPPENED. SO THAT’S THE CONCERN I HAVE.
AGAIN, WE’RE NOT EVEN BEING
INFORMED BY RECENT HISTORY, IN
SOME OF WHAT WE’RE DOING, BUT I
CAN’T COMMENT ON THE SPECIFICS
OF THIS ONE.
I DON’T WANT TO PRETEND TO KNOW
DETAILS THAT I DON’T.
>> GENERAL, ONE OF THE STORIES
TODAY BUT IT’S NOT A NEW STORY,
THE U.S. OF MILITARY
CONSTRUCTION FUNDS BEING
TRANSFERRED AND USED ALONG THE
SOUTHERN BORDER WHERE U.S.
FORCES ARE BEING DETAILED AND
DEPLOYED, IT HAPPENED WHEN YOU
WERE IN THE PENTAGON, AND
HAPPENING AGAIN NOW, HOW CAN WE
JUSTIFY THE TRANSFER OF AMERICAN
TROOPS TO THE SOUTHERN BORDER
GIVEN ALL THE THINGS WE’RE
COPING WITH IN THE MIDDLE EAST,
OUT IN ASIA, IN EUROPE, HOW CAN
WE MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT’S A
LEGITIMATE USE OF AMERICAN
MILITARY FORCES GIVEN ALL THE
DEMANDS ON THESE FORCES ALL OVER
THE WORLD?
THE WORLD? >> YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS A
COLONEL COMMANDING A REGIMENT IN
THE 1990s, ONE OF MY TASKS WAS
TO DEPLOY BATTALIONS OF
INFANTRY, UNDER PRESIDENT
CLINTON, ON THE SOUTHWEST
BORDER, IN ORDER TO WARN THE
BORDER PATROL WHERE PEOPLE WERE
COMING ACROSS.
COMING ACROSS. I THINK WE’VE FORGOTTEN THAT,
UNDER PRESIDENT BUSH WE DEPLOYED
TRIPS TO THE BORDER.
PRESIDENT OBAMA HAD TROOPS ON
THE BORDER, ARMED TROOPS ON THE
BORDER AS WELL FOR SEVEN OF
EIGHT YEARS, SO IT’S HOW WE ARE
DOING IT TODAY WHERE WE’RE
INCREASINGLY IN AN ADVERSARIAL
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE
EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND THE
LEGISLATURE, AND I THINK WE HAVE
TO LOOK AT IT IN THIS WAY, I
THINK IT WAS EINSTEIN WHO SAID,
YOU KNOW, IF GIVEN AN HOUR TO
SAVE THE WORLD HOW WOULD HE
COMPOSE HIS THOUGHTS, HE SAID I
WOULD SPEND 55 MINUTES DEFINING
THE PROBLEM AND I WOULD SAVE THE
WORLD IN FIVE MINGSUTES.
OUR EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND
LEGISLATIVE BRANCH HAVE TO SIT
DOWN AND DEFINE THE PROBLEM TO
MUTUAL SATISFACTION, OTHERWISE,
EVERY SOLUTION EITHER ONE
PROPOSES, THE OTHER ONE IS GOING
TO SAY THAT DOESN’T ADDRESS THE
PROBLEM AS I SEE IT.
WE’RE NOT DEFINING THE PROBLEM
SUFFICIENTLY TO COME UP WITH A
COLLABORATIVE STANCE OUT OF
WASHINGTON, D.C. BETWEEN THE
CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE
BRANCH.
BRANCH. >> REMINDS ME OF A FRIEND OF
MINE, MEASURE NINE TIMES, HAMMER
ONCE OR SAW ONCE, AND I DO IT