>>> This morning CNN's Christiane Amanpour just had an exclusive one-on-one sitdown with
former president Barack Obama.
They are in Athens, Greece, the birthplace of democracy, and had a candid discussion
about the war on Ukraine, the upcoming U.S. Election and how to navigate a global tricky
relationship with autocratic leaders.
She will join us in a moment.
First, here is part of that conversation.
>> Reporter: President Biden, a man you know extremely well, has made the defense of democracy
the sort of centerpiece of his administration.
It just so happens that right now there is also not just, you know, threats to democracy
by dictatorships and autocrats, but liberal democracy as well.
He has called the president of China dictator and they are sticking with it.
He also hosted the prime minister of India, Modi, who is considered autocratic, or at
[8:13:54 AM]
considered autocratic, or at least a liberal Democrat.
What is the point, I guess, or how should a president engage with those kinds of leaders
either in the naming of them or the dealing with them?
>> Look, it's complicated.
The president of the united States has a lot of equities, and when I was president I would
deal with figures and in some cases who were allies who, you know, if you press me in private,
do they run their governments and their political parties in ways that I would say are ideally
democratic?
I would have to say no.
>> Reporter: Do you want to name names?
>> Of course not.
But you had to do business with them because they are important for national security reasons.
You know, there are a range of economic interests.
I dealt with China to get the Paris accords done.
[8:14:55 AM]
Paris accords done.
I dealt with Modi to get the Paris accords done because you think climate change is something
that transcends any particular momentary issues.
It's a problem that humanity has to deal with over the next several decades in a serious
way.
I do think that it is appropriate for the president of the United States where he or
she can to uphold those principles and to challenge whether behind closed doors or in
public trends that are troubling.
And so I am less concerned about labels than I am concerned about specific practices.
I think it is important for the president of the United States to say that if you have
uighurs in China who are being placed in mass camps and reeducated, quote, unquote, that's
a problem.
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problem.
That's a challenge to all of us, and we have to pay attention to it.
I think it is true that if the president meets with prime minister Modi, then the protection
of the Muslim minority in a majority hindu India, that's something worth mentioning because
-- and by the way, if I had a conversation with prime minister Modi, who I know well,
part of my argument would be that if you do not protect the rights of ethnic minorities
in India, then there is a strong possibility India at some point starts pulling apart and
we've seen what happens when you start getting those kinds of large internal conflicts.
So that would be contrary to the interests, not just a Muslim India, but also hindu India.
So I think it's important to be able to talk about these things honestly.
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honestly.
You are never going to have -- things are never going to be as clean as you'd like because
the world is complicated.
They will /* she will join us later tonight.
>> 10:00 P.M.
Eastern you see right there.
Tune in for that.
Right now we want to bring in CNN political analyst, senior political correspondent at
"The New York Times" Maggie Haberman.
I want to talk about everything that you are deeply engaged in covering every single day
but listening to that the former president has been more candid since he left office.
Digging in on a central issue to the current president but also I think to some degree
the campaign coming up.
>> I think the campaign coming up I think he was talking primarily about relations with
foreign leaders.
Realistically, it can apply domestically, too.
This is an argument that actually you haven't seen very many Democrats make about the pro-democracy
efforts which is that it's complicated, that it's not clean cut, it's not, you know, up
and down always.
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know, up and down always.
Sometimes you have to make decisions that are not necessarily in keeping with other
professed ideals but because there is a broader world out there.
I wonder how much we will see president Obama out there making arguments like this that
supplement what president Biden has been saying.
I mean, I think that there is always one of the concerns that Democrats have, particularly
people around Joe Biden have, is that Obama is such a better communicator, such a more
natural communicator that is there going to be that comparison with Obama.
I think speaks to the moment we are in and the moment the Democrats find themselves in,
you know.
I don't know how much of this Obama is discussing with the white house.
I don't know how much of this is just him wanting to make his voice heard.
But I do wonder if it portends hearing from him more going forward.
>> It's also just really interesting timing that he is doing this right after as Christiane
pointed out Biden at that fundraiser in San Francisco called XI a dictator and the fact
he is hosting Modi.
The white house did get some
[8:19:00 AM]
The white house did get some concessions, they are going to hold a joint press conference.
That's a big deal.
Modi didn't want to do that.
Journalists can ask him these hard question, too.
Do you think we will hear from the white house whether or not president Biden brought up
these many human rights concerns?
Treatment of journalists in India?
>> I think that's something that the white house will address.
I think they tend to be willing to engage on issues like that.
I think whether they are going to want to have a broader conversation about the contradiction
between clearly outlining XI -- >> In the same week.
>> In the same week, when you are hosting Modi in person.
So I do think this is going to be a contradiction they are going to get pushed on.
Again I think the point that Obama is making is that when you speak in absolutes, you are
going to get questions like that even if your commitment is absolute to democracy and to
democracies globally that we are living in a complicated world.
>> Stick with us.
We have Christiane Amanpour with us now.
After that interview, we just
[8:20:01 AM]
After that interview, we just heard a block of that interview and we were talking with
Maggie about the dynamic and how candid the former president was.
>> Was your sense of things after talking to him?
>> Well, look, you know, this is the question, right?
President Biden has made defending democracy the centerpiece of his administration.
Look at Ukraine.
Obviously, the defense of democratic Ukraine.
But as they say, you know, it's complicated.
There is real politic.
You can go back to Kissinger for that kind of foreign policy of trying to maintain stability.
What you are seeing and you probably discussed this many Democrats don't like this.
They see that Modi is autocratic, that Modi is cracking down on the press, on religious
minorities, the Muslim minorities on political opposition and that is autocratic or at the
least a liberal democracy.
As you know, there is a very, very keen desire to try to win Modi over to try to help him
peel away from China.
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peel away from China.
The entire focus, it looks like at the moment, of America's foreign policy is on China.
And, therefore, they are trying to get as much support as they can, including they are
trying to get India's support to bolster the not the confrontation, but the idea of trying
to make sure that China doesn't pose an even more dangerous threat.
It's risky, of course.
Modi has not and India has not gone ahead with many of the U.N. Resolutions he against
Russia on this Ukraine war, keeps buying Russian oil.
There is a lot to be discussed between them.
>> This an exclusive interview.
The fact that you got so much time with former president Obama in this moment, I was saying
to Phil, you are the perfect person to interview him in this moment.
Can you give us a little bit of a highlight of what people will see tonight?
>> Yeah.
Well, it is an amazing time to get this interview because the former president is very, very,
very much engaged in the promotion of global democracy
[8:22:04 AM]
promotion of global democracy and the strengthening of American democracy.
He is here as part of his foundation with dozens if not more than 100 what we call global
youth leaders from his foundation, men and women, young men and women they are trying
to help really connect together and build and strengthen all of the aspects of democracy
from a grass roots up vision, if you like, around world.
Here we are in Athens, the birthplace of modern democracy.
So essentially we talked about the U.S. Democracy.
We talked about what he called creaky institutions around the world that need to be strengthened
even in the U.S.
I asked him about the spectacle of a former president who is being indicted on federal
charges actually running for office, the highest office in the land, perhaps the world.
He said it's not ideal, but it is absolutely fundamental for Americans and others around
the world to see that America upholds the rule of law and that the law applies to everybody.
He said that was absolutely fundamental.
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fundamental.
I will say another thing, too.
He spoke at length about global and U.S. Inequality and inequity, income inequality and all the
other inequalities that are so fundamental to the degradation of democracy and around
the world.
To be fair, and I'll just going to say it, he said the submarine, the submersible sinking
and we don't quite know what's going to happen is a terrible tragedy, and yet not enough,
you know, resources and attention was put on 750 poor people who were caught in the
boat off the coast of Greece where we are right now and who almost all have died except
for maybe over 100 people were saved.
These are the kinds of