Prasoon Joshi: So, Sadhguru thanks again for inviting me here to such a beautiful place.
You’ve been really lucky that you are here and you were born here, I would say.
Sadhguru you’ve seen this river very closely and (Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed).
Now, at this stage when the whole world knows your concern for humanity and you pick up
so many issues, various issues which affect human life.
But why did you think that talking about rivers at this stage, for India especially, is so
important and it should be brought in to national consciousness.
Sadhguru: See, right now the situation in the country is like this.
Well, since 1947, from where we were in 1947 to today, in terms of economy, in terms of
business, in terms of development, science, technology we’ve come you know, we’ve
taken huge steps.
The most important thing in all this is in 1947 the average life expectancy of an Indian
was twenty-eight years.
That means both you and me shouldn’t be alive right now (Laughs).
Prasoon Joshi: Yes, yes, I realize that.
Sadhguru: So today, we have reached something like seventy or seventy-one, which is the
life expectancy of an Indian.
So this is a phenomenal achievement.
In making all these things happen one thing we kind of forgot is the land that nourished
us – soil and water we forgot or the pressures of the population and our pace of acceleration
for development, all these things took a huge toll out of one-hundred-and-sixty million.
Hundred-and-sixty million acre… hectares of arable land.
One-hundred-and-five hec… million hectares have been labeled as distressed soil.
People think the problem is water.
No, the real problem is soil.
When there is no sufficient organic content in the soil, there is not enough vegetation,
the water, the rain-water that comes down, instead of percolating down, it is flowing
off on the surface.
This is the reason why you’re seeing flood and drought in the same place.
Wherever there is flood today, just watch it in another three, four months there will
be a drought there because the water is not going down.
We need to understand in a tropical country there is only one source of water.
River is not a source of water.
Lake is not a source of water.
Pond or well is not a source of water.
These are all destinations for water but the only source of water is monsoon, and that
monsoon has not dwindled, so seeing this nearly on an average all rivers in India have depleted
by forty percent on an average.
Cauvery has depleted forty-four percent and in Cauvery basin in the last ten years, forty-seven-thousand-six-hundred
farmers have committed suicide.
I am saying what more disaster do you want in a nation?
Prasoon Joshi: You are a blessed soul who can think like that but today’s human being,
who is out to exploit nature left, right and center for, for his betterment, you can say,
success, progress – I think it’s almost exploiting nature to the hilt.
Sadhguru: In the last twenty-five years, I am seeing river just depleting continuously
but particularly in the last seven to eight years the depletion is so sharp that nearly
five and a half months, it is not touching the ocean.
Why this sharpness of drop… why this sharpness in the drop?
I don’t have any explanation I am just making a guesswork; I am just saying maybe because
of the groundwater exploitation is so high, the aquifers instead of feeding the river
they’re taking away the water because water is being sucked by powerful pumps all over
the place, could be.
I…
I don’t have an absolute answer for that.
But for some reason in the last seven, eight years it’s been very sharp and since then
my concern has been there.
I’ve been waiting for an appropriate moment to bring this in to people’s consciousness.
Everybody thinks the problem is too big, it is not for them to address.
So this Cauvery Calling is an effort, it is a partnership between the farmers, the government
and civil society to make sure that we put back at least one-third of the vegetation
that we have removed.
Eighty-seven percent of the green cover has been removed in the last forty-five years.
Prasoon Joshi: Sadhguru that brings me to a question that I am not saying I am going
to be fatalist here but don’t you think it is the (Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed)…
something which is created will get destroyed and is it that human efforts and human intervention
can either slow down the process or reverse the process or the shristi will keep on going
destroying itself, recreating itself and probably it’s one of those things or you think that
a human intervention is going to change the direction where nature is going?
Sadhguru: When the problem is created by the human being, the solution also has to come
from the human being (Laughs).
So about nature fixing its own ways, yes it will.
Once there is no water in the villages – which is happening, they are on just the edge, during
summer seasons there is almost no water, many of them are migrating to other villages to
just drink water.
If that continues and if it… two consecutive monsoons completely fail let’s say, you
will see civil strife will happen in a volume that you cannot control.
All the things we’re doing to take the nation forward could be turned back simply because
we did not mange soil and water.
Prasoon Joshi: Understood and… and… and the how gargantuan the task is?
This, this is a huge problem but what is the solution then?
Sadhguru: See, the solution is not in some rocket science kind of thing, this is simple.
As I said there is only one source of water, which is monsoon.
We have to retain this, in the soil.
There is a very wonderful saying in Tamil, which says (Speaks in Tamil – not transcribed).
That means only if she walks, she is prosperity.
If she runs, she is a disaster, so she has to come slowly.
If she has to come slowly, the rainwater that comes must sink in this way and slowly find
its way to the river.
Right now it’s just running straight on the surface and getting to the river.
This is not good and another thing that’s happened is because of lack of vegetation
or tree cover what has happened is the monsoons which are spread over hundred to hundred-and-forty
days normally, about twenty-five years ago, today is largely happening between forty to
seventy-five days.
So when it rains there is a flood, otherwise there is a drought.
Flood and drought are not two different problems.
It is one problem.
Prasoon Joshi: So you’re saying that having scarcity and floods is part of the...
Sadhguru: It is the same thing, it’s the same problem.
Yes.
Prasoon Joshi: How, how is it the same problem?
Sadhguru: See, the same volume of rain is coming but we are not able to hold it in the
land.
That is the problem.
So right now what we are talking about is to bring back one-third of Cauvery basin under
shade, where there is substantial vegetation.
So if this happens, we’re talking about two-hundred-and-forty-two crore trees in Cauvery
basin.
Right now there are studies showing that ten-thousand trees in congruent land can sequester or augment
approximately between thirty-eight to forty-five million liters of water.
What this means is, two-hundred-and-forty-two crores trees can augment approximately nine
to twelve million… trillion liters of water.
Prasoon Joshi: Today’s kids when they are asked, “Where does the milk come from?”
The kid says, “It comes from the packet.”
Now this is the kind of reality we are facing, we live in cities.
Sadhguru: (Laughs) I must tell you this, now that you mentioned this.
During Rally for Rivers we organized thousands of art competitions in various schools.
The saddest part is many children when they drew the picture of a river what they drew
was brown sand because that’s how they’ve seen the river.
That’s their idea of a river.
Yes, that reality unfortunately, we have created but the important thing is this, right now,
here there are two problems, one is an ecological problem, another is a human problem.
Hundreds and thousands of farmers when they commit suicide, we must understand we are
creating a very massive problem.
It may not be very long before they get organized and disasters will happen in the cities.
Manifestations will come to the cities.
Whether it happens or not that’s not the issue, but where is our humanity first of
all?
When people who grow food for us, when they are dying in thousands every year, where is
the humanity?
Whether you live in city or village, what does it matter?
So right now, we have converted sixty-nine thousand-seven-hundred-and-sixty farmers in
to agro forestry.
In five to seven years, their incomes go up three-hundred to eight-hundred percent.
So it’s a proven model right now.
So only thing is every year we are converting approximately four to five thousand farmers.
If we go at this pace it will take eighty to hundred years.
What Cauvery Calling is right now is, we want to crush this hundred years in to twelve-year
project – for this we needed the support of the government.
Fortunately, both Tamil Nadu government and Karnataka government, both of them have said
one-hundred percent they’re willing to support the farmer to shift to agro-forestry for the
first four years with subsidies.
Prasoon Joshi: So, Sadhguru on that note we should take a break and we will be back soon.
The people who are not familiar with agro-forestry and they would definitely be inquisitive to
know what can actually government in simple terms help… do to help this cause.
Sadhguru: See, what happens with agro-forestry is, when we move to agro-forestry we are not
asking them to move hundred percent, those, many of them want to move to hundred percent
that’s their choice but generally we are asking one-third, one-third of their land.
Now when you move to agro-forestry, let’s say you have one hectare of land, you made
it in to agro-forestry, then what happens is in first two years fifteen percent of your
revenue will be lost.
Right now on an average, most farmers in this region are earning about forty-five thousand
rupees per hectare per year.
So fifteen percent of it drop will happen in the first two years.
In the second two years, about thirty percent drop will happen.
On the fourth year, fifty percent drop will happen.
We want the government to compensate this in the form of subsidies but by fifth year
he starts earning from forty-five thousand he starts earning 3.2 to 3.5 lakhs per year
and from then on his income goes on increasing.
So first four years for this transition that loss of revenue that is happening to the farmer
has to be augmented by the government.
Now both Tamil Nadu and Karnataka fortunately have agreed to do this hundred percent the
way we have given the project.
They said, “Definitely we will do this.”
Another problem was in this country the laws are such even if you grow your own tree in
this… in your own land if you grow a tree, if you cut it you could be arrested for that
because timber is treated as a forest produce.
We want to form a timber board, so that timber will be treated as agricultural produce because
in this country getting… cutting trees in the forest is over.
In this country it is completely finished.
There is no room for any more cutting in the forest.
Forest produce is… must be closed except for minor produce that tribals and others
who live around it make use of it, that’s different.
But commercial exploitation of forest must come to zero.
The only way you can get timber is from farms.
Right now, we are importing over seventy thousand crores worth of raw timber, over hundred-and-twenty
thousand crores worth of timber products.
Why can’t we grow it in our own land?
And this will save the farmer in a big way because we’ve already demonstrated…
Prasoon Joshi: So that’s where you are needing government intervention.
Sadhguru: Yes.
That is the government intervention.
One, one thing is to relax the laws about cutting the trees.
In the previous term of the central government, they released eighteen species.
But the problem is central government releases but Tamil Nadu government releases only ten
species.
Karnataka has not released any species.
Prasoon Joshi: The species means you’re saying that these trees can be planted.
You’re giving permission to be planted.
Sadhguru: Yes, planted but you cannot cut it (Laughs)
Prasoon Joshi: So you are saying that from the list of prohibited trees…
Sadhguru: I, I am saying there should be no prohibition of any kind.
In my land whatever I grow I must be able to crop it according to my need.
Only then I will use my land to grow trees.
It can’t take away the wealth of the farmer.
Prasoon Joshi: The people who are listening to you right now Sadhguru, how would, if they
want to make a change, what should be the first step right now?
Supposed they are moved by what you said right now.
Sadhguru: See, in Mumbai city, a beggar who is sitting on the streets of Mumbai city,
can easily contribute one tree per week.
Forty-two rupees I am sure he is capable.
If a beggar can contribute one tree a week, you and many other people all the citizens
in this country must think how much they can do if a beggar can do.
I am going to get forty-two rupees from at least hundred beggars in Bangalore and Chennai,
watch it.
I will definitely do it.
They will not refuse me because I’ll go begging to them.
They will not refuse me.
Now I am asking, “How many people will respond?” but right now eighty-seven thousand trees
per day is being contributed but we need to raise this in to lakhs.
It is important to do this because you can do many things in the country but if you destroy
the soil and water there is no nation – we need to understand this.
Prasoon Joshi: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
When the basics are not there, the foundation is gone, there’s nothing.
Sadhguru is it… is it possible like in every other field, in medical science, in energy
we have seen nuclear energy coming and providing radical solutions.
In medical science, we have seen there is nature therapy one side, which is a slow process
versus you know surgery and interventions of technology, which has made many things
possible.
Isn’t it that something as radical as which innovation and scientific inventions can provide
here also as a solution?
Can’t human race find a solution which is absolutely out of the box for a problem like
this?
Or this we have to solve in a very conventional bit by bit planting tree ways?
Sadhguru: See, there are engineering solutions.
Right now, there is a dam.
That’s why Cauvery is dammed like this.
Engineering solutions are okay for emergencies.
But without ecological solutions, there is no solution.
We must understand this, we’re talking about science and technology – there is no better
science not technology than nature itself.
This is a phenomenal technology.
What happens in a river, the hydrological process that’s happening there, what is
the life around it, how all of them are as one they’re working like one mechanism,
there is no better technology.
First of all, the important thing is this is not just about human life, this is also
about every other life.
We must understand this, there is no greater poison in the world than ignorance.
Prasoon Joshi: Yes, yes, I understand that and I hope all of us are listening to what
Sadhguru is saying here.
Sadhguru you’ve chosen Cauvery and in, in Maharashtra you have talked about the Yavatmal,
Waghadi you know nadi punar jeevan prakalph.
Now are you symbolically using these rivers because they are very, very important?
Sadhguru: No.
Prasoon Joshi: And or are you giving a larger message to the… about the rivers or your
one by one tackling issues?
Sadhguru: There is, there is a larger message.
See we did Rally for Rivers.
That was cooking within me for last twenty-eight years (Laughs).
So Rally for Rivers was a purely awareness process where hundred-and-sixty-two million
people participated and that led to the change in the policy.
Now this is a totally, large-scale demonstration where the farmers, the government and the
civil society need to act.
Farmers are willing to act.
Government has already acted.
Now it is the business of every civilized human being – if there is any humanity we
need to respond.
If three-hundred-thousand plus farmers commit suicide in fifteen years, if this doesn’t
move us, I don’t know what?
Prasoon Joshi: No, no I think your message is loud and clear Sadhguru, and thank you
for enlightening all of us.
I would like to recite one poem I wrote about rivers.
Sadhguru: Please.
Prasoon Joshi: And water.
You say I am not…
I will not let the water become old.
(Speaks in Hindi – not transcribed).