DIFFERENCES, LET’S BE CLEAR, THIS PRIMARY IS NOW DOWN TO TWO
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CHOICES,
AND HERE WE ARE IN PRIMARY EVE
AND WE WANT TO BRING IN AN
IMPORTANT DISCUSSION ON THESE
SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES.
SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES. I’M JOINED BY THE AUTHOR OF THE
BOOK "WALL STREET WARS" RICHARD
FAR
FAR FARLEY WHO HAS TAKEN A POSITION
AGAINST MUCH OF WHAT BERNIE
SANDERS STANDS FOR.
AND WHAT IS OFTEN CALLED LIBERAL
ECONOMICS, I’LL MENTION NEITHER
OF YOU ARE FORMAL SURROGATES FOR
ANY PARTICULAR CANDIDATE.
YOU HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS.
THANKS FOR DOING THIS
CONVERSATION.
CONVERSATION. >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME, ARI.
>> RICHARD, I HOPE YOU DON’T
MIND ME CALLING YOU A WALL
STREET LAWYER.
STREET LAWYER. >> I THINK THAT’S ACCURATE.
>> IT’S VERY ACCURATE, AND YOU
LOOK THE PART.
WHAT’S WRONG WITH DEMOCRATIC
SOCIALISM?
SOCIALISM? >> AGAIN, I THINK YOU NEED TO BE
CAREFUL ON YOUR DEFINITIONS.
OBVIOUSLY PUBLIC LIBRARIES, I
THINK WE CAN ALL ARGUE IS A GOOD
USE OF THE GOVERNMENT DOLLAR.
THE QUESTION IS WHERE TO DRAW
THE LINES AND WHAT IS GOING TO
BE MOST EFFECTIVE IN OUR SYSTEM
FOR THE BEST GOOD TO THE
GREATEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE.
>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE MARKET
TROUBLES TODAY, DO YOU THINK
THAT HELPS OR HURTS WHAT SANDERS
WANTS TO DO?
>> I THINK IT’S TOO EARLY TO
TELL.
TELL. THE ELECTION IS IN ONE DAY,
RIGHT, AND IF YOU WANT TO TALK
ABOUT THE PRIMARIES, I THINK
FRANKLY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS
MADE ITS CHOICE.
IT’S GOING TO BE JOE BIDEN.
>> WE SAW A REPORT TODAY FROM
"AXIOS," THINLY SOURCED, THAT
CLAIMED AMONG POTENTIAL TREASURY
SECRETARIES FOR JOE BIDEN WOULD
BE JPMORGAN CHASE, BIG WALL
STREET BANK CEO, JAMIE DIMON.
>> I HOPE HE’S --
>> BIDEN FOLKS SAY IT’S TOO
EARLY TO GET INTO THAT, ALTHOUGH
THAT WAS FLOATED, THEY SORT OF
TAMPED IT DOWN.
IS THAT A GOOD CHOICE?
>> I THINK IT WOULD BE.
HE’S HAD SOME HEALTH ISSUES
LATELY, WHETHER HE WOULD WANT TO
TAKE ON THAT JOB --
>> PUTTING A BANKER IN CHARGE OF
THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT?
>> I THINK THAT WOULD BE A GOOD
CHOICE.
CHOICE. >> DENNIS.
>> DENNIS. >> LOOK, LET’S FACE IT, HANK
PAULSON WHO WAS THE CEO FOR
GOLDMAN SACHS, I CAN’T REMEMBER
IF THERE’S A BIG EVENT IN
SEPTEMBER OF 2008 THAT HAPPENED
ON HIS WATCH AFTER YEARS OF
MASSIVE DEREGULATION, AND THE
MISGUIDED IDEATION THAT WHAT WAS
BEST FOR WALL STREET WAS GOOD
FOR MAIN STREET.
THE 2008 CRASH WAS THE WORST
CRASH SINCE 1929 AND GAVE US THE
WORST ECONOMY SINCE THE GREAT
DEPRESSION, AND IN FACT, MANY OF
THE BAD RIPPLE EFFECTS CAN
EXPLAIN A LOT TO DO WITH TRUMP
AND SANDERS AND THE DEBATE WE’RE
HAVING.
HAVING. >> WHAT DO YOU SAY TO VOTERS --
AND WE’VE HEARD THIS FROM
SELF-DESCRIBED LIBERALS WHO SAY
THEY ARE FEARFUL OF HOW MUCH
CHANGE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALISM
WOULD FORCE ON THE ECONOMY OR
THEIR LIVES.
THEIR LIVES. >> WELL, YOU KNOW, ANYBODY WHO
GETS ELECTED, IT REALLY NEEDS
THREE PLANS, A, B, AND C, A IS
IF YOU HAVE SUPER MAJORITIES IN
THE CONGRESS AND WIN THE WHITE
HOUSE.
HOUSE. PLAN B IS IF YOU HAVE THE WHITE
HOUSE AND THE OPPOSITION PARTY
HAS THE CONGRESS, AND PLAN C IS
IF YOU HAVE THE WHITE HOUSE, ONE
PARTY HAS THE HOUSE, ONE PARTY
HAS THE SENATE.
THE TRUTH IS IF BERNIE SANDERS
GETS ELECTED, DEMOCRATIC
SOCIALISM IS NOT SWEEPING THE
COUNTRY AND LIKE MINDED PEOPLE
ARE NOT GETTING ELECTED TO TAKE
OVER THE HOUSE AND THE CONGRESS.
HE’S GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH
THE POLITICAL REALITY OF PEOPLE
WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM.
THERE MAY BE REPUBLICANS IN THE
MAJORITY IN ONE OR BOTH HOUSES
OR NOT.
OR NOT. THAT’S NOT GOING TO CHANGE
THINGS --
THINGS -- >> LET ME BRING IN RICHARD --
DENNIS, IS SORT OF MAKING THE
ARGUMENT THAT INSTEAD OF GOOD
COP BAD COP YOU HAVE SOCIALIST
COP AND CAPITALIST COP.
>> I THINK YOU DON’T VOTE FOR
SOMEONE ON THE BASIS OF THEIR
POLICIES NOT BEING ENACTED.
I THINK YOU HAVE TO ASSUME THAT
THEY’RE GOING TO FIGHT TOOTH AND
NAIL TO GET THEIR POLICIES
ENACTED.
ENACTED. I WOULD AGREE WITH HIM THAT THE
NATION WOULD BE MUCH BETTER OFF
IF THERE WAS A CHECK ON BERNIE
SANDERS.
SANDERS. I THINK THAT’S CALLED JOE BIDEN.
WE DON’T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT WHO
CONTROLS THE HOUSE AND THE
SENATE, BUT I WOULD ALSO GO BACK
TO SAY I THINK WE WERE LUCKY IN
2008 THAT WE HAD BERNANKE AND
PAULSON AND GEITHNER BECAUSE I
THINK THEIR HANDLING OF THAT --
AND FRANKLY, WE HAD BARNEY FRANK
IN THE HOUSE AND CHRIS DODD IN
THE SENATE.
THE SENATE. THE WAY THAT CRISIS WAS HANDLEDS
WAS IN MY WAYS TEXTBOOKS.
>> LET ME GO TO DENNIS AND BACK
TO YOU.
TO YOU. >> AS SOMEONE WHO WAS A WALL
STREET LAWYER FOR 20 YEARS AND A
SENIOR STAFFER, DURING THE CRASH
AND DURING DODD FRANK, I’M GOING
TO RESERVE MY JUDGMENTS ON HOW
LUCKY WE WERE OR WERE NOT TO
HAVE A BUNCH OF BANKERS RUNNING
THE ADMINISTRATION, WHICHEVER
ADMINISTRATION IT WAS.
LEAVE LABELS ASIDE AND LEAVE
CANDIDATES ASIDE FOR A MINUTE,
WHAT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON IS THAT
WE HAVE 90% OF THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE ARE ECONOMICALLY WORSE
OFF TODAY THAN THEY WERE IN
2007.
2007. THERE ARE STATISTICS ALL OVER
THE PLACE THAT SHOW THAT.
WE ALSO HAVE A FINANCIAL SYSTEM
THAT’S SUPPOSED TO SUPPORT THE
REAL ECONOMY, BUT WHAT WE HAVE
IS A FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT’S
LARGELY A WEALTH EXTRACTION
SYSTEM FOR THE FEW, RATHER THAN
A WEALTH CREATION SYSTEM FOR THE
MANY.
MANY. THAT’S WHERE JOE BIDEN AND
SANDERS HAVE FOCUS.
>> I DON’T DISAGREE WITH THAT.
>> THE OTHER PIECE IS THE
ENDLESS TAX DEBATE.
A LOT OF DEMOCRATS FEEL THAT
REPUBLICANS ARE CONSTANTLY
RUNNING ON CUTTING TAXES WHETHER
THEY DO IT OR NOT OR FAIRLY OR
NOT, AND DEMOCRATS SEEM TO BE
SPLITTING THE DIFFERENCE, EXCEPT
FOR THIS DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST,
BERNIE SANDERS WHO HAS BEEN OPEN
ABOUT THE FACT THAT RICH
PEOPLE’S TAXES ARE GOING TO GO
UP A LOT.
UP A LOT. IS THAT A GOOD SUSTAINABLE
ECONOMIC POLICY ARGUMENT,
DENNIS, AND THEN RICHARD?
>> THE TAX CUTS AND DEREGULATION
AREN’T A POLICY.
THEY’RE ACTUALLY SOUNDBITES THAT
SUBSTITUTE FOR POLICY.
WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTIVE, AND HOW
IS IT GOING TO ACHIEVE THE
OUTCOME YOU WANT?
IF WHAT YOU WANT IS A MAINSTREAM
ECONOMY THAT LIFTS EVERYBODY UP,
THAT HAS BROAD-BASED PROSPERITY
AND OPPORTUNITY, TAX CUTS AREN’T
GOING TO GET YOU THERE, NEITHER
IS DEREGULATION.
IS DEREGULATION. WHAT YOU NEED, WHAT BIDEN AND
SANDERS NEED ARE POLICIES THAT
ACTUALLY ARE GOING TO HAVE
BROAD-BASED PROSPERITY RATHER
THAN WHAT YOU HAVE NOW, WHICH IS
MASSIVE TRANSFER OF WEALTH FROM
ALMOST EVERYBODY TO THE TOP.
THAT’S NOT SUSTAINABLE.
>> WHAT YOU’RE SAYING IN PLAIN
ENGLISH IS CORRUPTION, THIS
RICHARD IS THE ARGUMENT THAT
WHEN YOU GET DOWN TO IT, THE WAY
IT WORKS AND THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
THE ABILITY TO GET THE
LOOPHOLES, IT’S CORRUPT, AND
IT’S UNFAIR, AND THAT’S WHY IF
YOU ACTUALLY HAD A HARSHER
SYSTEM IT WOULD BE MORE FAIR.
I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE SANDERS
FOR YOU.
FOR YOU. PEOPLE CREDIT HIM FOR BEING VERY
CLEAR ABOUT WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.
HE SAYS, LOOK, IF IT WAS THE
RATES IN THE EISENHOWER ERA,
WHAT’S SO BAD ABOUT THAT?
>> HOW HIGH WOULD YOU GO?
>> WE HAVEN’T COME UP WITH AN
EXACT NUMBER YET, BUT IT WILL
NOT BE AS HIGH AS THE NUMBER
UNDER DWIGHT D. EISENHOWER,
WHICH WAS 90%.
BUT IT WILL -- I’M NOT THAT MUCH
OF A SOCIALIST COMPARED TO
EISENHOWER.
EISENHOWER. >> WELL, LOOK, THE TRUTH OF THE
MATTER, ARI, IS THE RATES WERE
90 BUT NOBODY PAID IT BECAUSE
YOU HAD A SYSTEM RIDDEN WITH
LOOPHOLES AND EVERY PERSON OUT
THERE WENT OUT AND BOUGHT AN LP
INTEREST IN AN OIL WELL AND GOT
DEPLETION ALLOWANCE.
DEPLETION ALLOWANCE. IF YOU LOOK AT THE EFFECTIVE
RATE PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAID IT WAS
OBVIOUSLY MUCH LOWER THAN THAT
FOR THE OVERWHELMINGLY MAJORITY
OF PEOPLE.
OF PEOPLE. WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT GOING TO
DO TO STIMULATE GROWTH, CREATE
HIGH-PAYING JOBS AND GET THE
SORT OF ECONOMY THAT DENNIS AND
I BOTH WANT?
WE HAVE THE TEN-YEAR TREASURY
NOTE AT LESS THAN 75 BASIS
POINTS, AS LOW AS 50.
NOW IS THE TIME FOR THE
GOVERNMENT TO GO OUT AND BORROW
FROM AN INFRASTRUCTURE PROGRAM,
ISSUE 30-YEAR BONDS, 100-YEAR
BONDS AND TAKE THAT MONEY AND
MAKE THE INVESTMENTS IN
INFRASTRUCTURE THAT BOTH PARTIES
AGREE HAVE TO GET DONE.
IT’S THE CHEAPEST FINANCING IN
THE HISTORY --
>> YOU THINK DOING THAT, THOUGH,
WITH JUST STRAIGHT UP HIGHER
TAXES ON THE RICH IS NOT THE WAY
TO FUND THAT?
>> NO, NOT WHEN THE BORROWING
COSTS ARE SO CHEAP RIGHT NOW.
>> DENNIS, I WANT TO READ
SOMETHING --
SOMETHING -- >> YOU WANT TO STIMULATE THIS
ECONOMY AND NOT CHOKE IT OFF
WITH MORE TAXES.
>> I FEEL STIMULATED JUST BY THE
CONVERSATION.
CONVERSATION. DENNIS, I WANT TO READ SOMETHING
ON THE OTHER SIDE.
I WANT TO PRESS YOU, DENNIS, ON
THE COSTS HERE.
IT’S NOT JUST SANDERS.
HE JUST HAPPENS TO BE THE MORE
LIBERAL CHOICE.
LIBERAL CHOICE. THERE WERE SEVERAL CANDIDATES
TALKING ABOUT THINGS THAT WERE
MORE EXPENSIVE.
MORE EXPENSIVE. THIS IS DANGERS OF MEDICARE FOR
ALL, SAYING LOOK, IT COULD COST
$32 TRILLION IN ITS FIRST
DECADE, MORE THAN DOUBLE ALL
CURRENTLY PROJECTED FEDERAL, AND
CORPORATE INCOME TAX
COLLECTIONS.
COLLECTIONS. BOT LINE, ARE VOTERS LOOKING AT
A PLAN IN THE SANDERS SIDE THAT
IS JUST NOT FUNDABLE, OR IS THIS
JUST LIKE THE IRAQ WAR AND
EVERYTHING THAT COMES ALONG
WHICH IS THE BUDGET WILL FOLLOW
WHAT THE PRIORITIES ARE?
>> WELL, LET ME FIRST REITERATE,
I’M NOT HERE ON BEHALF OF BERNIE
SANDERS.
SANDERS. BETTER MARKETS DOESN’T ENDORSE
CANDIDATES.
CANDIDATES. >> SURE, I SAID THAT.
>> BUT WE WANT OUR CANDIDATES TO
FOCUS ON THE FINANCIAL SYSTEM
AND THE ECONOMY AND MAKING IT
WORK FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF
AMERICANS, AND SO I THINK
GETTING INTO A DEBATE, WHICH YOU
CAN HAVE ABOUT WHAT MEDICARE FOR
ALL COSTS AND WHAT IT DOESN’T
COST IS LARGELY A SIDE SHOW --
>> LET ME PRESS YOU ON THAT,
THOUGH.
THOUGH. IS IT A SIDE SHOW BECAUSE YOU’RE
SAYING 32 T IS AFFORDABLE OR NOT
AFFORDABLE?
AFFORDABLE? >> I THINK IT’S BETTER TO FOCUS
ON ANOTHER CRAZY LEFTIST
CANDIDATE THAT USED TO BE IN THE
RACE CALLED MICHAEL BLOOMBERG.
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG HAD PLANS TO
RAISE TAXES VERY SUBSTANTIALLY.
HE HAD ONE OF THE MOST
COMPREHENSIVE FINANCIAL REFORM
WALL STREET REFORM PLANS OF ANY
CANDIDATE EVER, NINE SINGLE
SPACED PAGES.
SPACED PAGES. HE PROBABLY KNOWS WHAT HE’S
TALKING ABOUT A LOT MORE THAN
ANYBODY ELSE WHO’S TALKING ABOUT
THESE ISSUES.
THESE ISSUES. HE ALSO HAD A PRETTY ROBUST
SOCIAL POLICY PLAN.
NO MATTER WHO ENDS UP IN THE
WHITE HOUSE, WHETHER IT’S BIDEN
OR SANDERS, THEY ARE GOING TO
HAVE VERY BROAD-BASED PLANS
TARGETED TO HELPING THE MIDDLE
CLASS, WORRYING ABOUT TAX CUTS
AS RICHARD DOES IS NOT GOING TO
BE PRODUCTIVE AND IS NOT GOING
TO BE HELPFUL.
WHAT WE NEED IS AN ECONOMY OR
FINANCIAL SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS
THE REAL ECONOMY AND THAT NEEDS
A PLAN, NEITHER -- SANDERS MORE
THAN BIDEN, BUT BIDEN DOESN’T
EVEN HAVE A PLAN THAT ADDRESSES
WALL STREET OR FINANCIAL REFORM.
MIKE BLOOMBERG HAD THAT, SO
BIDEN NEEDS TO CATCH UP ON THE
FUNDAMENTALS FOR POLICIES
BECAUSE IF HE’S ELECTED, HE
NEEDS TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING
AND RICHARD SAID EARLIER, VOTERS
ARE ENTITLED TO KNOW WHERE THESE
CANDIDATES STAND.
CANDIDATES STAND. IT’S PAST TIME FOR JOE BIDEN TO
GET A FINANCIAL REFORM WALL
STREET PLAN OUT, AT LEAST AS
GOOD AS MIKE BLOOMBERG.
>> AS PROMISED, I HAVE TO PIVOT
A LITTLE BIT TO CORONAVIRUS, BUT
I HAVE TIME FOR A BRIEF JOKE IF
YOU BOTH HAVE TIME.
I WANT TO APOLOGIZE TO RICHARD
AND AMERICA WALL STREET USUALLY
GETS THE LAST WORD, BUT WE ARE
OUT OF TIME.
WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THAT?
SO SO.
SO SO. >> TAKES A LOT TO MAKE ME CRY.