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amna: This week brought us
several major political stories
, including the end of a
controversial border policy,
former president Donald Trump
found liable for sexual assault,
and ongoing negotiations over
the debt ceiling.
To discuss all of this we turn
, to the analysis of brooks and
Capehart.
That's New York Times columnist
David brooks and Jonathan
Capehart, associate editor for
the Washington post.
Welcome.
We are talking about immigration
again, focus back on the U.S.
Southern border.
David as we saw earlier, as
title 42 ends, crowded but not
chaotic.
Very high daily averages.
The secretary says they continue
to work within the confines of a
system that has been outdated
and underfunded for years.
Does it have to be this way?
David: In our political system
for sure.
First, it is insane to have an
immigration policy that pretends
to be a health care policy or
vice versa.
We have to define what asylum is
paired there are a lot of people
fleeing persecution, that's what
the asylum bill is made for.
But there are other people just
seeking a better life and that
is a legitimate reason to try to
immigrate here.
But they are trying to use the
asylum system to get in and
that's one of the many ways our
system has broken down.
You look at what has happened in
Europe, around the world, and in
this country.
Donald Trump would not have been
president without chaos, in my
view.
The far right people across
Europe would not be doing as
well without chaos at the
border.
Mostly Americans need to have a
sense that somebody is
controlling this thing and right
now they don't.
Jonathan: To pick up on what
David was saying, the people
using the asylum system -- why?
Part of the reason why is the
American immigration system is
such a backlog through the
proper channels that people are
finding any and every way
possible succumb into this
country.
Until congress gets its act
together and does something,
coverings of immigration reform,
the last time if memory serves
got anywhere near doing
something was when the senate
passed a bipartisan gang of
eight immigration reform bill
out of the senate and it stalled
in the house in 2014 and we've
not seen anything like that
since.
This is one of those situations
where if Washington were working
properly, if the country were in
a different place, this is the
situation where you would have
another gang of eight, gang of
12, just a congressional gang
getting in a room and hashing
out, how do we fix this now?
This is our opportunity.
Instead, it doesn't seem like
congress will do anything.
Amna: Does it surprise you to
see the Biden administration
move further right?
The fact they are being sued by
Progressives and conservatives
about immigration policies, what
does it say about this moment?
Jonathan: It says everything is
broken.
I should correct myself -- the
house did pass an immigration
bill but it is not going
anywhere in the senate.
Amna: To that point, they knew
the bill would be dead on
arrival.
David: The Biden administration
I think is shifting more toward
an mainstream physician.
You remember the primary debate
in 2020, should we decriminalize
the border and all of the hands
went up?
That's when the party was not in
the mainstream because people
want immigration but also
control.
I'm going to be on the
irrational side of a tiny hint
of optimism.
The house passes this bill and
in the senate you get Kyrsten
Sinema and Tommy Tillis saying
it is a starting point.
Then you get dick Durbin, he's
saying it is hopeful.
Schumer is active, a lot of
people suddenly are active.
I guess one thing, we've been
covering this and people have
been trying to push immigration
reform as copperheads of
immigration reform.
-- Comprehensive immigration
reform.
Navy we should try something
more modest.
There is pent up desire to do
something but it looks messy.
Amna: The front runner on the
Republican side remains former
president Donald Trump, also in
the headlines.
Early in the week, he was found
liable of sexually abusing E. J
Ean Carroll.
He also took part in a town hall
where he continued to lie about
the election and mocked Carroll.
I know you were watching this
unfold, is this what we are in
for?
Jonathan: Absolutely.
I wasn't surprised.
I have watched this trump rerun
since June 16, 2015, when he
announced his presidential
campaign.
What was so horrific about the
town hall was the reaction of
the audience.
David: We cover major figures.
There are ways to cover in ways
not to cover.
In my view it would be
disastrous if we appointed
ourselves sensors or determiners
of who is covered.
One of the reasons Donald Trump
is popular is people think
people in our business are
arrogant.
It would be an arrogant move to
say we are not going to cover
that guy.
Jonathan: Donald Trump is
popular because he scratches the
very raw, emotional and ugly
itch within the American
populace where if I read one
more time someone saying I like
Donald Trump because he says
what we are thinking -- if that
is the case, those are some
really ugly thoughts.
Amna: I know we will be
talking to this for several
months.
Let's switch to talks of the
debt ceiling.
There is no end in sight but
talks continue.
You take that as a sign of
progress?
Will there be a deal in time?
David: I'm on the bottom end of
cautiously optimistic.
[Laughter]
They are talking, the staffs are
talking, they postponed the
meeting, that suggest to me they
are talking.
There is some agreement about at
least what they will talk about.
We've had dozens of debt ceiling
crises -- not crises, but
where we had to raise the
ceiling.
Recently they attached some debt
reduction.
Every time they did it without a
crisis.
Obviously this is a different
suggestion -- situation but
history suggest they did it how
are made times without sending
the country and world and global
chaos, that puts me at the
bottom.
Amna: Are you at the bottom of
optimism?
Jonathan: I think I'm there with
David being optimistic.
The staff met on Tuesday,
Wednesday, Thursday.
They met today.
If the staffs are meeting,
that's a great sign.
But this is one scary ride we
are on.
I don't see -- here is what I
would love to see happen.
It's great that the staffs are
talking, and they are talking
about budget cuts, but it has to
be part of the appropriations
process.
This needs to be dual track,
raise the debt ceiling cleanly
and keep having those
conversations about what the
spending cuts should be.
That's the way it should be
done.
My fingers are crossed that in
the end, we pulled the plane out
of the nosedive with
announcement that will happen.
Amna: Is that enough for speaker
Mccarthy?
He traded a lot to get to the
speakership.
Can he come back to his
conference with anything short
of spending cuts?
David: He will get spending cuts
but the question is how big they
will be.
If you look at 93, 97, they did
that, they said we will raise
the debt ceiling and in that
case they got to a balanced
budget that we will not get to
be at but I think the Biden
administration knows they will
have to cut some spending.
Amna: You think there are two
paths ahead?
Jonathan: I said what I said.
The dual track gives each one to
yes, they just have to do it.
Amna: We will watch and wait and
have you back and see if you are
right.
Jonathan Capehart and David
brooks, good to see you.
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