AND FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY AND FBI OFFICIAL, CHUCK ROSENBERG.
I’M GOING TO START WITH YOU.
BECAUSE NEVER IN MY LIFE HAVE I
NEEDED SO MUCH EXPERT ADVICE
ABOUT WITNESSES AND WHAT MAKE AS
WITNESS CREDIBLE.
WITNESS CREDIBLE. BUT SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME
YESTERDAY AND I WANT TO KNOW IF
AFTER SEEING PARNAS YOU AGREE
WITH THIS ASSESSMENT.
PARNAS HAS BEEN INDICTED BY THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK.
THEY HAVE HIS WHATSAPPS AND
THEY’VE CHARGED HIM ALREADY.
HE’S MADE HIMSELF AVAILABLE TO
CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS.
CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS. HE HAS NO MOTIVE TO LIE OR IT
COULD BE AN ADDITIONAL FEDERAL
CRIME HE’S CHARGED WITH, RIGHT?
>> THAT’S RIGHT.
IF HE LIES TO CONGRESS, IT’S AN
ADDITIONAL FEDERAL CRIME.
IF HE LIES TO RACHEL MADDOW,
IT’S NOT.
IT’S NOT. THERE’S A WEIRD THING GOING ON.
BECAUSE MR. PARNAS IS A
DEFENDANT IN A PENDING CRIMINAL
FEDERAL CASE, HE HAS EVERY
INCENTIVE TO GET OUT OF TROUBLE
AND REDUCE HIS EXPOSURE.
BUT THE PLACE TO DO THAT IS NOT
ON NETMSNBC, THE PLACE TO THAT I
IN THE SULGTSOUTHERN DISTRICT OF
YORK.
YORK. IF THEY FOUND HIM VALUABLE AND
CREDIBLE, HE WOULDN’T BE TALKING
PUBLICLY ON TELEVISION.
IT SUGGESTS TO ME THEY DON’T
NEED HIM OR DON’T WANT HIM BUT
THEY’RE CERTAINLY NOT USING HIM.
NOBODY WHO HAS A COOPERATION
AGREEMENT WOULD GO ON NATIONAL
TELEVISION AND TALK ABOUT THE
CENTRAL FACTS IN THE CASE.
WHY IS HE DOING IT?
WHAT’S HE LOOKING FOR?
AND CAN YOU CORROBORATE WHAT
HE’S TELLING US?
AND THE CORROBORATION PIECE IS
SO IMPORTANT.
SO IMPORTANT. I DON’T TRUST HIM.
DOESN’T MEAN HE’S LYING.
BUT I’VE DEALT WITH LOTS AND
LOTS OF WITNESSES LIKE PARNAS IN
MY LIFE.
MY LIFE. YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.
THEY’RE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING.
>> THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW
YORK ISN’T INVESTIGATING THE
PRESIDENT?
PRESIDENT? >> AS FAR AS WE KNOW.
BUT YOU AGREE TO TELL
PROSECUTORS AND AGENTS
EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT ANY
MISCONDUCT THEY ASK ABOUT,
WHETHER OR NOT THEY’RE LOOKING
TO CHARGE THE PRESIDENT IS
IMMATERIAL.
IMMATERIAL. THEY WANT TO KNOW EVERYTHING YOU
KNOW.
KNOW. IF YOU HAVE A COOPERATION
AGREEMENT, YOU DEAL WITH THE
PROSECUTORS.
PROSECUTORS. IF YOU DON’T, PERHAPS YOU DEAL
WITH THE PRESS AND CONGRESS.
HE’S LOOKING TO TELL A STORY,
OBVIOUSLY SEEK CREDIT.
BUT I THINK YOU HAVE TO BE
CAREFUL IN DIGESTING WHAT HE’S
TELLING YOU.
TELLING YOU. WHEN SOMEONE IS SEEKING HELP IS
TELLING THEIR STORY, YOU HAVE TO
CORROBORATE IT NINE WAYS TO
SUNDAY.
SUNDAY. >> AND THAT’S A COLLABORATION
THAT PEOPLE HAVE MADE ON THIS
PROGRAM.
PROGRAM. THIS IS ONE OF THE MANY WAYS
IMPEACHMENT IS SO DIFFERENT.
ALL THE EVIDENCE STAYS SECRET.
AT THE END YOU CHARGE OR DO NOT
CHARGE.
CHARGE. YOU MADE THE CLEAR THEY RUSHED
THIS EVIDENCE TO THE HOUSE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE BEFORE
THE ARTICLES ARE DELIVERED,
BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND
IMPEACHMENT IS A POLITICAL
PROCESS.
PROCESS. WE WENT ABOUT THE WORK DOING THE
THINGS YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT.
CORROBORATING WHAT HE SAID WITH
OTHER PIECES.
OTHER PIECES. HERE’S GORDON SONDLAND SAYING
ALMOST VERBATIM.
ALMOST VERBATIM. LET’S LISTEN TO THAT.
>> EVERYONE WAS IN THE LOOP IT
WAS NO SECRET.
EVERYONE WAS INFORMED VIA EMAIL
ON JULY 19th, DAYS BEFORE THE
PRESIDENTIAL CALL.
PRESIDENTIAL CALL. >> YOU’VE TESTIFIED THAT
MULVANEY WAS AWARE OF THIS QUID
PRO QUO OF THIS CONDITION THAT
THE UKRAINIANS HAD TO MEET, THAT
IS ANNOUNCING THE PUBLIC
INVESTIGATIONS TO GET THE WHITE
HOUSE MEETING.
HOUSE MEETING. IS THAT RIGHT?
>> YEAH.
>> YEAH. A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF
IT.
IT. >> INCLUDING MR. MULVANEY?
>> CORRECT.
>> CORRECT. >> AND INCLUDING THE SECRETARY
OF STATE?
OF STATE? >> CORRECT.
>> CORRECT. >> AND I BELIEVE IT WAS FIONA
HILL ON THE DRAMATIC FINAL DAY
OF TESTIMONY SAID ONCE SHE SAW
GORDON SONDLAND, SHE REALIZED
WHERE SHE THOUGHT THERE WAS AN
IRREGULAR TO REGULAR FOREIGN
POLICY CHANNEL, NO ONE WAS
AIDING UKRAINE WITH THEIR
SECURITY GOALS.
SECURITY GOALS. THE CHANNEL WAS THE DONALD TRUMP
DROEKTED RUDY GIULIANI EXECUTED
IRREGULAR CHANNEL SEEKING TO
EXTORT UKRAINE FOR POLITICAL
INVESTIGATION BUSINESSFORE
INVESTIGATION BUSINESSFORE INVESTIGATIONS BEFORE WE
RELEASED
RELEASED CONGRESSIONALLY-MANDATED AID.
CONGRESSIONALLY-MANDATED AID. DOES THAT SINK UP OR REPEAT
PATTERNS FROM PREVIOUS
WITNESSES?
WITNESSES? >> IT SINKS UP.
BUT THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS I
FOUND FIONA HILL SO MUCH MORE
CREDIBLE THAN LEV PARNAS.
FIRST OF ALL SHE’SVER NOT A
CRIMINAL.
CRIMINAL. SECOND OF ALL SHE HAD DIRECT
CONTACT WITH JOHN BOLTON WHO
SPOKE DIRECTLY TO THE PRESIDENT.
EVERYTHING PARNAS TOLD US, WHILE
IT SINKS UP GENERALLY WAS STUFF
YOU LEARNED FROM RUDY GIULIANI.
HE DIDN’T TALK TO BOLTON OR THE
PRESIDENT.
PRESIDENT. AND SO LET’S NOT FORGET HOW
COMPELLING THE WITNESSES WERE A
MONTH 1/2 AGO WHEN WE SAT
TOGETHER AND WATCHED THEM BEFORE
THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE
COMMITTEE.
COMMITTEE. PARNAS GENERALLY CORROBORATES
MUCH OF WHAT WE HEARD.
BUT THEIR TESTIMONY, I THOUGHT
WAS FAR MORE CREDIBLE AND FAR
MORE DIRECT.
MORE DIRECT. >> I THINK CHUCK ROSENBERG IS
SORT OF SPEAKING TO -- I DON’T
KNOW HOW TO PUT THIS DELICATELY,
SO I WANT.
AN INTEGRITY GAP, I GUESS.
YOU CAN’T COVER DONALD TRUMP
WITHOUT COVERING PEOPLE IN JAIL
AND PEOPLE THAT JUST GOT OUT OF
JAIL.
JAIL. COHEN, PAPADOPOULOS AND FLYNN.
THIS IS WHO -- WE DIDN’T THRUST
LEV PARNAS ON TO TELEVISION.
TRUMP DID BECAUSE HE WAS RUDY
GIULIANI’S BAD MAN.
>> AND THE OTHER PART OF THIS
GROUP HERE.
GROUP HERE. THE OTHER THING THAT’S
COMPELLING ABOUT WHAT HE HAD TO
SAY.
SAY. IT’S -- HE’S THE UMPTEETH
MILLIONTH PERSON WHO HAS SAID
THIS WAS GENERALLY KNOWN.
HE’S SAID THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR
SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO HAVE BEEN
DONE WITHOUT MULTIPLE PEOPLE AT
MULTIPLE LEVELS BEING AWARE OF
IT.
IT. THIS IS WHAT I THINK IS GOING TO
BE HELPFUL IS INCREASINGLY
PEOPLE ARE RECOGNIZING AND I
THINK THIS HAPPENED BECAUSE OF
COHEN AND ROGER STONE.
PEOPLE, PART OF DONALD TRUMP’S
ORBIT ARE RECOGNIZING HE WON’T
PROTECT ME.
PROTECT ME. HE’S BARELY PROTECTING RUDY.
I’M FIVE POSITIONS AWAY.
NOBODY FEELS LIKE THEY HAVE THE
PROTECTION OF THIS PRESIDENT
ANYMORE.
ANYMORE. SO THEY DO FEEL FREE TO GO ON
TELEVISION AND RUN THEIR MOUTHS.
TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST, EVEN IF
I CAN’T GET HELP FROM THE
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK, I