Question for you
is it time to bring back mask mandates?
Mm.
Um.
Is it time to bring back mask mandates?
Yes for sure.
Don't let our guards down.
No , don't think so.
I'll be honest man having a mass sucks.
I think it'd be hard to go back at this point.
Public transit definitely.
Oh, I'm just sick that's why I have mine on.
Well I'm a physician and that's a tough one.
People wanna wear masks, then they should wear a mask.
No.
I guess it is time to bring it back.
[Shrugs]
If the government government enforce it, good for me.
Yeah.
Ontario's Chief Medical Officer of Health
is expected to recommend
a return to public masking Monday
but will stop short of a mask mandate.
Canada's top doctors recommending masks as well
children's hospitals are overwhelmed
with a triple whammy of flu, RSV, and COVID
and many doctors are increasingly alarmed
about a health care system in crisis.
So, is it time to bring back mask mandates?
Let's talk about that with two physicians
Dr. Barry Pakes is the York Region Medical Officer of Health
and Dr. Fahad Razak is the former head
of the Ontario Science table
both of them join me from Toronto.
Now I know you both agree that
masking helps slow down COVID transmission
but you have different views
on requiring people to wear them.
Dr Razak, why why do you support bringing back mandates?
Yeah, first of all I'll say that
this is obviously a remarkable, remarkably controversial issue
so I I say that with caution that I believe
that it's now the time to require mass
in crowded essential indoor settings
places like transit, grocery stores, or healthcare settings
and it's because of the degree of crisis within the system
right now
if you listen to the CEOs, the frontline healthcare workers
at our pediatrics hospitals
they have not seen a surge a virus like this
at any time in their careers
and especially now we're seeing the surge
early in the year
which is worrying because we're just entering
the respiratory virus season.
Part of this probably is an accumulation of children
who haven't been exposed over the first couple of years
of the pandemic
but the point is we have this crisis now
and masking does seem to broadly restrict
and and reduce the transmission
of these respiratory viruses
and that's why many people including myself
think it's time to consider it.
But to repeat something you said
even your advocacy of a mask mandate is in limited areas
so you're saying basically crowded indoor public spaces?
That's right, that's right.
I think we're far enough into the pandemic now
that if people want to go to restaurants or gyms
they should be able to do that
it's about the areas that you have to go to
so parts that are essential to day-to-day living.
I think that's where we need
to protect people as much as possible.
I'll say further that many people were also swayed
by a really important study that came out of Boston
published in New England Journal this week
that also showed an important protective effect
within Public Schools.
I would say considering that we're really dealing
with a pediatrics crisis that should be part of the consideration at this point
now that is a further step at least start with the other essential public places.
Dr. Pakes what about having the mandates
at least in those limited again public crowded indoor spaces?
So, I think Dr. Razak and I really agree
on almost everything there
and throughout the pandemic
I think both of us and all public health physicians
have recognized that you know
there's the public health of the medical science
and then there's the social and political science
and so what I undoubtedly agree
that what we need to do right now
is to move ourselves and and the entire population closer
towards, you know, everybody wearing a mask
and there's a variety of ways of doing that.
The real challenge now of course is unlike this
this you know the place where we've been until now
for the past couple of months
where you know if you're at high risk
you know you can choose to wear a mask
those who are at higher risk are those under age five
or under age four
who you know have trouble wearing it
are going to be reluctant to do so
there are some you know educational harms and issues
you know and the whole you know
big more controversial issue around school
so it is more challenging and
and you know the faster we can move closer
towards everybody masking I think the better off will be
and and you know what we're going to hear hopefully
in Ontario Monday is going to move us towards that.
So, we are still in the midst of a pandemic
there still is a you know a high degree of COVID transmission
and in some cases that turns out
to have serious consequences
in Dr. Razak you you make an interesting point
about how widespread use of masks
kind of remind people of of the the risk
that many people face.
Tell us more about that.
Yeah, absolutely and I want to point out that the benefit
of masks at this point
people are talking about it broadly
not just about COVID but remember that
the acute stressors within the pediatrics sector right now
are non-COVID viral illness things
like RSV and influenza increasingly
the seriousness of of the pandemic
or the situation that we're in right now
I think is important to consider and mass mandates
are part of signaling that importance
the reason why that's really important
is the uptake of vaccines has been extremely low
for booster vaccines
and it's still lower than we'd like for the influenza vaccine
part of the signaling of the seriousness of the pandemic
I think is also saying look we've reached the point of crisis
where we need to have masks on in these places
we don't like it but we have to do it
and the hope is that we'll also enhance
the messaging around vaccines
now that's not the direct reason to do it
but I think many people do hope that the messaging
at least will become more coherent.
And Dr. Pakes we've got about a minute left
but if not a mask mandate
any suggestions on other ways to remind people
of the the continuing risk of COVID?
I mean I think it really is as Dr Razak
that we we need to get people vaccinated
and actually you know I would differ in the sense that
I think those people who are at highest risk
older people have really rolled up their sleeves
and gotten the bivalent really
but the problem is it's everybody else
who truly isn't at that high risk of of severe illness
but they all need to get vaccinated
with the bivalent and flu
in order to prep the overall population
you know back where we were over a year and a half ago
with everybody getting that vaccine both for themselves
but also for everybody else
so other than masking really
that's what we need to do
so those people who don't think they're at highest risk
go get your flu vaccine, your bivalent.
I just got both of mine
I'm not particularly at risk because of my age
but I think it's incredibly important.
Maybe a quick answer from both of you on this final point.
We know masks are contentious
it quickly becomes polarized.
Maybe I'll start with you Dr. Razak
any suggestions on how we can have
meaningful conversations about mandates
without it becoming personal?
Look very very difficult at this point in the pandemic
and I'm very sympathetic to public health leadership
that are worried about furthering that discord.
I'll say that two important public polls in the last week
suggest that between 70 to 80 per cent of Canadians
are willing to put on that mask to protect the system
I think that's very important there are some people
who are dug in against it
it's hard to do it
but I still think that you have to go ahead.
And Dr Pakes what about trying to have
an unemotional conversation about this?
You know certainly I think we're in a great position in Canada
that it is less controversial here than in many other places
and to be honest as a medical officer of health
who might be enacting this kind of mandate
it's not that much of a challenge for me
it's a challenge for those
public and private organizations, businesses, schools
you know other places that need to enforce it
with about 20 percent which is still pretty low
who are going to be you know
I will not put on a mask
it's very hard for us to put people
businesses organizations in a position like that
so that is a real challenge
and as we move that social norm now
over the next days to weeks
hopefully that'll become easier for everyone.
Well a good starting point is people like you coming forward
and being willing to talk about it on the program
and I very much appreciate it.
Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you.