JUSTICE KENNEDY. JUSTICE HARDIMAN WAS RUNNER-UP
TO JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH IN
FILLING THE PREVIOUS HIGH COURT
VACANCY LAST YEAR.
I’M JOINED BY CONNECTICUT
DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS MURPHY,
ROBERT COSTA, NATIONAL POLITICAL
REPORTER FOR THE "WASHINGTON
POST" AND AN MSNBC POLITICAL
ANALYST.
ANALYST. MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIR
AND MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST.
RUTH MARCUS, COLUMNIST FOR THE
"WASHINGTON POST" AND AN MSNBC
CONTRIBUTOR.
CONTRIBUTOR. A GREAT -- YOU’RE THE FINAL FOUR
FOR TONIGHT FOR US.
>> OH, BOY.
>> SENATOR MURPHY, IS THERE ANY
WAY THIS ISN’T GOING TO BECOME
AN ENORMOUSLY POLITICAL DECISION
BY YOUR FELLOW MEMBERS OF THE
SENATE?
SENATE? ESPECIALLY FROM THE RED STATES.
>> HE DECIDED TO MAKE THIS A
MOMENTOUS POLITICAL MOMENT BY
OUTSOURCING THE DECISION TO THE
HERITAGE INSTITUTE AND TO THE
FEDERALIST SOCIETY THE DAY THAT
HE BASICALLY PUT THESE
RIGHT-WING POLITICAL
RIGHT-WING POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS IN CHARGE OF
SELECTING THE NEXT SUPREME COURT
JUSTICE, WHO WOULD BASICALLY
TELEGRAPH THAT THE ONLY PEOPLE
ON THOSE LISTS ARE PEOPLE WHO
WILL NOT ONLY OVERTURN ROE
VERSUS WADE BUT POSSIBLY THE
RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN GRIZZLE V.
CONNECTICUT.
CONNECTICUT. >> THAT WAS THE ONE ABOUT BIRTH
CONTROL PILLS WAY BACK THEN,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. I JUST DON’T THINK YOU HAVE TO
MISTAKE WHAT THE AGENDA IS HERE.
THE AGENDA IS NOT JUST TO GET
RID OF ROE.
IT’S TO GO AFTER GRISWOLD ITSELF
SO YOU CAN GO AFTER
CONTRACEPTION.
CONTRACEPTION. THE MINUTE HE OUTSOURCED THE
DECISION TO THOSE POLITICAL
GROUPS HE KNEW HE WAS GOING TO
BE IN FOR THE FIGHT OF HIS LIFE
AND HE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE
HARD TO KEEP ALL OF THE
REPUBLICANS, SOME OF WHICH HAVE
A BIG PROBLEM WITH A COURT
THAT’S GOING TO OVERTURN THE
RIGHT TO FULL REPRODUCTIVE
HEALTH CARE FOR WOMEN.
>> ROBERT COSTA, I THINK THAT
TRUMP IS PLAYING THIS NOT JUST
TO RULE THE SUPREME COURT FOR
THE NEXT 40 OR 45 YEARS AS HE
PUTS IT BECAUSE HE COULD WELL DO
THAT.
THAT. IF GINSBURG RETIRES NEXT YEAR OR
LATER HE COULD STILL GRAB THREE
SEATS ALTOGETHER AND MAKE IT 6-3
AND OVERWHELMINGLY A RIGHT-WING
COURT.
COURT. MY QUESTION IS IS HE ALSO USING
THIS AS A POLITICAL TOOL TO
DESTROY THE POLITICAL FUTURE OF
PEOPLE LIKE HEIDI HEITKAMP OUT
IN NORTH DAKOTA, OF JOE MANCHIN
IN WEST VIRGINIA, OF JOE
DONNALLEY IN INDIANA AND
POSSIBLY END OR SHORTEN THE
CAREER OF DOUG JONES DOWN IN
ALABAMA BY SAYING VOTE YOUR
STATE OR VOTE YOUR PARTY, YOU
CHOOSE AND I’LL KILL YOU EITHER
WAY.
WAY. YOUR THOUGHTS.
YOUR THOUGHTS. >> THE POKING AND PRODDING OF
THESE RED STATE DEMOCRATS
POLITICALLY STARTS TODAY.
YOU SAW IT IN THE INVITATIONS,
CHRIS, FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THAT
WENT OUT TO THOSE FOUR RED STATE
DEMOCRATS.
DEMOCRATS. THEY ALL DECLINED TO GO.
SO DID MODERATE REPUBLICAN SUSAN
COLLINS OF MAINE.
AND THE MINUTE THIS PERSON’S
ANNOUNCED TONIGHT YOU’LL SEE THE
JUDICIAL CRISIS NETWORK AND
OTHER CONSERVATIVE GROUPS PUT
MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THE
AIRWAVES TO TRY TO PRESSURE
THESE RED STATE DEMOCRATS
RUNNING IN STATES WON BY TRUMP
TO BACK THE NOMINEE.
>> MICHAEL, THIS IS A POLITICAL
TEST, AND I’M GOING TO SAY AT
THE END OF THE SHOW, I CAN SAY
IT RIGHT NOW, I THINK IT’S GOING
TO BE BRUTAL FOR PEOPLE LIKE
THOSE SENATORS I JUST MENTIONED.
TRUMP IS CONNIVINGLY BRILLIANT
AT THIS.
AT THIS. HE SAYS ARE YOU GOING TO VOTE
THE WAY YOU PEOPLE AT HOME WOULD
VOTE ON THE NOMINATION OR YOUR
PARTY’S GOING TO VOTE?
HE’S GOING NOILD THEM, FORCE
THEM TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THEIR
PARTY AND THEIR STATE.
>> THEY’VE ALREADY MADE THEIR
CHOICE.
CHOICE. THEY’RE GOING TO VOTE THE WAY
THE PEOPLE AT HOME WANT THEM TO
VOTE.
VOTE. >> THEN THIS NOMINATION’S
DEAD -- I MEAN IT’S IN FOR SURE.
>> IT’S FOR SURE.
WHETHER IT’S ONE OF THE TWO
GENTLEMEN YOU SHOWED AT THE
BEGINNING OF THE PROGRAM OR EVEN
SOMEONE ELSE WE’VE NOT TALKED
ABOUT ON THIS LIST, THEY’RE
GOING TO BE CUT VERY CLOSE OUT
OF THAT CLOTH OF GORSUCH.
THEY’RE GOING TO BE THAT TYPE OF
NOMINEE.
NOMINEE. THEY’RE NOT GOING TO BE SOMEONE
THAT IS GOING TO SWING SO FAR IN
THE DEBATE THAT IT MAKES IT HARD
FOR THOSE VOTES TO CONGEAL, IF
YOU WILL, AROUND THIS NOMINEE.
>> AND NO BORKS IN THERE.
>> EXACTLY.
>> EXACTLY. THERE’S NOT THAT PLAY.
SO I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS
LISTENED TO A LOT OF SMART
PEOPLE ABOUT THIS.
THIS IS THE ONE TIME WHERE THE
PRESIDENT SORT OF GIVES HIMSELF
OVER TO OTHERS IN THAT REGARD.
YES, HE DOES THE SHOWMAN BIT OUT
FRONT BUT BEHIND THE SCENES HE’S
LISTENING AND FOLLOWING
DIRECTIONS
DIRECTIONS DIRECTIONS ON THIS AND I THINK
THIS NOMINEE IS NOT GOING TO BE
THE KIND OF POLITICAL PLAY
PEOPLE ANTICIPATE IT WILL.
>> THE VALUES QUESTION, WHAT
KIND OF COUNTRY DO YOU WANT TO
LIVE IN, WHAT RIGHTS SHOULD
WOMEN AND OTHER PEOPLE-V GAY
HAVE, RESPECT AND DIGNITY.
ALL THOSE VALUES QUESTIONS.
AGAINST THE POLITICS OF THE GAME
HE’S PLAYING.
HE’S PLAYING. IT IS A GAME HE’S SETTING UP BY
DOING THIS.
DOING THIS. >> SO THE POLITICS ARE REALLY
CLEAR.
CLEAR. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GET TO A
MAJORITY OF VOTES AGAINST THE
NOMINEE.
NOMINEE. AND THE ONLY WAY YOU’RE GOING TO
GET TO THAT --
>> 51.
>> 51. >> -- IF YOU PEEL OFF THE
REPUBLICAN SENATORS WHO DECLINED
WISELY I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE’S
NOMINATION TONIGHT.
NOMINATION TONIGHT. I WILL BE STUNNED IF IT’S ONE OF
THE TWO FOLKS, KAVANAUGH OR
HARDIMAN, IF THEY END UP VOTING
AGAINST THEM.
AGAINST THEM. IF THAT IS TRUE, WHY WOULD
DEMOCRATS IN THOSE RED STATES
SORT OF GO ON THE SUICIDE,
POLITICAL SUICIDE MISSION?
WHY WOULD CHUCK SCHUMER THE
LEADER WANT THEM TO GO ON THE
SUICIDE MISSION, PAY
ATTENTION --
ATTENTION -- >> I’LL GIVE YOU A REASON.
>> -- TO YOUR PROSPECTS.
>> OCASIO CORTEZ.
BECAUSE THE LEADERSHIP IS GOING
TO BE TRASHED IF THEY LET THIS
GO BY THEM.
>> THEY CAN TRASH IT BUT THEY
NEED TO WORRY ABOUT TRYING TO
CLAW BACK AS CLOSE TO A MAJORITY
AS POSSIBLE.
AS POSSIBLE. ON THE SUBSTANCE --
>> SO YOU ARGUE THE BEST SIDE
OF -- DISCRETION’S THE BEST FORM
OF VALOR, IN OTHER WORDS, DECIDE
NOW YOU’RE NOT GOING TO WIN THIS
FIGHT, SO JUST START --
>> DO THE MATH.
>> JUSTICE BRENNAN --
>> YOU’RE A VOTER.
>> I THINK THIS NOTION IT’S A
SUICIDE MISSION FOR DEMOCRATS IN
TRUMP-LEANING STATES TO VOTE
AGAINST A PRO-CORPORATE,
ANTI-CHOICE, ANTI-COLLECTIVE
ANTI-CHOICE, ANTI-COLLECTIVE BARGAINING NOMINEE IS
RIDICULOUS.
RIDICULOUS. THE FACT IS --
>> NORTH DAKOTA?
>> WEST VIRGINIA.
>> IN MANY STATES YOU MAY HAVE
PUBLIC WHO LIKES TRUMP BUT THE
POLLING ALSO TELLS YOU THAT THEY
DON’T MIND A SENATOR WHO IS
GOING TO BE A CHECK ON THE --
>> WOULD YOU TELL HEIDI HEITKAMP
OF NORTH DAKOTA WAY SMALL
POPULATION, DON’T RUN ON LOCAL
ISSUED, VOTE WITH YOUR PARTY ON
THIS AND SEE HOW IT GOES?
>> I WOULDN’T TELL HEIDI OR JOE
OR ANY OF THEM TO DO ANYTHING.
THEY’RE GOING TO HAVE TO MAKE
THEIR OWN DECISION.
BUT IF YOU RUN A NATIONWIDE
CAMPAIGN MAKING CLEAR WHO THIS
NOMINEE IS GOING TO BE, VOTERS
ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE GOING
TO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE KIND
OF DECISIONS HE OR SHE --
>> ROBERT, LET’S GO BACK TO --
KINTLY -- THERE’S GOING TO BE
HEARINGS, THEY’RE GOING TO BE
ALL OVER TELEVISION FOR MONTHS.
THE HEARINGS ARE GOING TO BE
DYNAMITE.
DYNAMITE. THERE ARE PEOPLE THERE WHO
REALLY KNOW HOW TO DO THE
HEARINGS.
HEARINGS. QUESTIONS OF RELIGION PERHAPS
ARE GOING TO COME UP.
THEY CAN GO BOTH WAYS.
BUT MY QUESTION IS WON’T THE
DEMOCRATS AND THE LEADERSHIP
ESPECIALLY, GO INTO THOSE
PRIVATE ROOMS AT THE CAPITOL,
SCHUMER’S ROOM, THEY SIT IN
THERE AND GO -- YOU SIT THERE --
SCHUMER TALKING TO HEIDI
HEITKAMP, YOU SAY YOU KNOW WHAT
I THINK WE’RE NOT GOING TO GET
MURKOWSKI OR COLLINS SOURKS KNOW
WHAT?
WHAT? YOU’RE FREE.
YOU’RE FREE. I CAN HEAR THAT CONVERSATION.
BECAUSE WHY COMMIT SUICIDE?
>> IT’S GOING TOLL DEPEND ON
THE HEARINGS.
THE HEARINGS. THEY DON’T HAVE THAT
CONVERSATION UNTIL THEY SEE HOW
THESE HEARINGS GO.
AND THESE HEARINGS AS YOU SAY
COULD BE EXPLOSIVE.
IF IT’S JUDGE KAVANAUGH, THEY’RE
GOING TO GO OVER HIS TIME WITH
THE SPECIAL COUNSEL IN THE 1990s
INVESTIGATING VINCE FOSTER AND
PRESIDENT CLINTON AND THEY’LL GO
OVER HIS WORK IN GEORGE W.
BUSH’S WHITE HOUSE.
IF IT’S JUDGE HARDIMAN, THEY’RE
GOING TO LOOK AT ALL THESE
RULINGS HE’S DONE ON GUN RIGHTS
THAT ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE.
SO IF YOU’RE HEIDI HEITKAMP OF
THE WORLD, IT’S TBD.
IT ALL ZEPDS ON HOW THESE
HEARINGS PLAY, HOW THE COUNTRY
SEES THE NOMINEE.
>> CAN YOU FIND -- DO YOU
THINK -- LET ME GO BACK TO THE
SENATOR.
SENATOR. DO YOU THINK A SENATOR FROM
THESE RED STATES WOULD FIND
SOMETHING STRONG ENOUGH TO USE
BACK HOME AGAINST THE NOMINEE
THAT THEY COULD JUSTIFY IT?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
>> ABSOLUTELY. AND I THINK IT’S RIGHT.
THIS IS ALL GOING TO PLAY OUT AS
THE COUNTRY LEARNS WHO THESE
NOMINEES ARE.
NOMINEES ARE. I THINK A LOT OF TRUMP’S BASE,
RIGHT?
RIGHT? NOT THAT HE WAS GOING TO TAKE ON
CORPORATE AMERICA, HE WAS GOING
TO RETURN POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
WHAT THEY’RE GOING TO FIND IS
ALL OF THESE JUDGES WERE
HAND-SELECTED BY THE FEDERALIST
SOCIETY BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING
TO TAKE POWER AWAY FROM REGULAR
PEOPLE AND HAND THEM TO BIG
CORPORATIONS.
CORPORATIONS. I THINK IF WE MAKE THAT CASE
EFFECTIVELY, IF WE TELL PEOPLE
THAT THESE ARE THE JUDGES WHO
ARE GOING TO TAKE AWAY FEDERAL
PROTECTIONS FOR YOU, IF YOU HAVE
A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION,
THEY’RE GOING TO OVERTURN THE
AFFORDABLE CARE ACT, ALL OF A
SUDDEN THIS LOOKS LIKE A VERY
DIFFERENT VOTE IN THOSE PLACES
THAN IT MAY BE IF ALL THAT
MATTERS IS THAT THE JUDGE WAS
PICKED BY DONALD TRUMP.
THESE JUDGES ARE GOING TO HAVE A
RECORD, AND WE’RE GOING TO MAKE
THAT VERY CLEAR TO THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE BY THE TIME --
>> I NOTICE -- I GET BOB CASEY’S
INFORMATION, SOMEONE PUT HIM ON
MY LIST, HIS FUND-RAISING LIST.
I DON’T KNOW HOW I GOT ON THERE.
HE’S REALLY PUSHING THIS
CORPORATE THING LIKE YOU ARE.
IN OTHER WORDS, IT’S NOT ALL
ABOUT ROE OR LGBT RIGHTS, IT’S
ALSO ABOUT WHAT SIDE ARE YOU ON
IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY.
ARE YOU WITH THE RICH PEOPLE AND
THE CAPITOL PEOPLE OR ARE YOU
WITH THE WORKING PEOPLE?
>> NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN AMERICA
RIGHT NOW IS HEALTH CARE, AND
THIS IS A COURT THAT’S GOING TO
DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT THE
CONGRESS CAN UNDER THE
CONSTITUTION PROTECT PEOPLE
FROM --
FROM -- >> HOW DO THEY DO IT, BY THE
WAY?
WAY? NOW THEY’VE LOST THE INDIVIDUAL
MANDATE.
MANDATE. ONCE YOU’VE LOST THE INDIVIDUAL
MANDATE IT’S NOT PERCEIVED AS A
TAX BILL, WHICH IS THE WAY
ROBERTS VOTED FOR IT.
>> BUT THE ANSWER IS ONCE IT’S
NOT PERCEIVED AS A TAX BILL
BECAUSE THERE’S NO INDIVIDUAL
MANDATE, THERE’S NO
UNCONSTITUTIONAL COMPULSION.
UNCONSTITUTIONAL COMPULSION. NO ARGUABLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL
COMPULSION.
COMPULSION. LOOK, I WOULD HAVE LOFRDVED TO S
JUSTICE MERRICK GARLAND.
WOULD HAVE LOVED TO SEE HIM
CONFIRMED.
CONFIRMED. I UNDERSTAND THE ANGER AND
FRUSTRATION AMONG SENATE
DEMOCRATS.
DEMOCRATS. I HAVE TO SAY LOOKING AT A JUDGE
HARDIMAN OR JUDGE KAVANAUGH I DO
NOT SEE THIS NOMINEE AS
SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT THAN
WHAT A PERSON JEB BUSH OR A
PRESIDENT MITT ROMNEY WOULD HAVE
PICKED.
PICKED. >> YOU’RE VERY BENIGN TONIGHT.
ANYWAY, ON "MEET THE PRESS"
MISSOURI REPUBLICAN ROY BLOUNT,
THE SENATOR FROM MISSOURI, SAID,
"OF ALL FOUR FINALISTS," HE
SAID, "ALL THE FOUR WE’RE
HEARING ABOUT, THEY’RE ALL GOING
THROUGH WITH 50 VOTES PLUS THE
VICE PRESIDENT.
VICE PRESIDENT. LET’S HEAR.
LET’S HEAR. >> I THINK THEY’LL ALL BE --
THEY’RE GOOD JUDGES.
I THINK THEY’D BE FINE JUSTICES
OF THE SUPREME COURT.
I DO THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS TO
THINK ABOUT WHO IS THE EASIEST
TO GET CONFIRMED HERE.
AND I EXPECT WE’LL DO THAT ON
SORT OF A NORMAL TIMETABLE OF A
COUPLE OF MONTHS.
>> THAT’S WHAT WE’RE HEARING
FROM MICHAEL HERE, THEY’RE GOING
TO GO FOR THE ONE THAT CAN SLIP
THROUGH EASILY.
THROUGH EASILY. THE "WASHINGTON POST" REPORTS
THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SPOKE WITH
SENATE MANGT LEADER MITCH
McCONNELL ON FRIDAY.
"McCONNELL DID NOT PUSH ANY
CHOICE ON THE PRESIDENT."
BUT THE REPORT GOES ON TO ADD
THAT McCONNELL DID NOTE THAT
SLARD HARDIMAN AND KETHLEDGE
COULD FARE WELL BECAUSE THEY
WERE NOT AS CHARGED AS THE
PRESIDENTS’S SHORT LIST OF
OTHERS.
OTHERS. SENATOR, I LOVE TO HAVE YOU
HERE.
HERE. I LOVE TO HAVE A SENATOR HERE.
YOU KNOW THE FEELING WHENEVER HE
TALKS TO EACH OTHER.
WOULD WE BE BETTER OFF WITH THE
OLD 60-VOTE REQUIREMENT WHERE
YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME KIND OF
BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS TO GET
ANYBODY THROUGH?
ANYBODY THROUGH? WASN’T THAT A BETTER SYSTEM?
>> I’VE BEEN A CRITIC OF THE
FILIBUSTER, BUT I ALWAYS THOUGHT
THAT IT MADE SENSE FOR THE
SUPREME COURT.
SUPREME COURT. I DIDN’T MIND GETTING RID OF IT
FOR THE LOWER COURTS FOR
PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEES.
PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTEES. AND I ALSO FRANKLY DON’T MIND A
CONVERSATION ABOUT REFORMING IT
FOR LEGISLATION.
FOR LEGISLATION. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SUPREME
COURT, A LIFETIME APPOINTMENT,
ESPECIALLY NOW THAT PRESIDENTS
ARE PICKING PEOPLE IN THEIR 40s
AND 50s --
>> FOREVER.
>> FOREVER. >> YEAH.
>> YEAH. IT CERTAINLY SEEMS --
>> DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, AS
THE PHILOSOPHER AND THE COLUMN
WRITER?
WRITER? >> YEAH, ACTUALLY, I SHARE THE
SENATOR’S VIEW.
SENATOR’S VIEW. DON’T LIKE THE FILIBUSTER FOR
EXECUTIVE BRANCH NOMINEES.
DO LIKE IT FOR JUDICIAL
NOMINEES.
NOMINEES. I THINK ONCE YOU MADE THE
DECISION TO GET RID OF DECISIONS
FOR LOWER COURT NOMINEES --