Chase: We're about to talk about nonbinary things,
and the way that I intro my videos-
Hey guys! It's me. Chaseypoo.
Chase: I just shot myself Ash: I already feel excluded
Chase: [cackles] I already shot myself in the foot, bye!
[intro music]
Chase: Today I am going to be talking to you by myself apparently
about nonbinary things and trans things.
And if my co-host for this...
very beautiful video would- [laughs]
[whoop]
back up! [both laughing]
Ash: Hey folks! It's me!
Chase: I can't afford the sound effects, so I made the sound effect myself.
[woooop]
[laughing]
Chase: Who are you? [laughs]
Ash: My name is Ash.
I... am... a person.
I make videos online about LGBT education. Chase: Yep
Ash: Um, I recently came out as genderqueer, as trans,
as non-binary, as a whole bunch of squiggly cool words.
Chase: But wait.
Ash: Mhm Chase: But Wait.
Ash: Yes Chase: Did you just say trans AND non-binary?
Ash: That- that is me.
Chase: What the-? Ash: Yep, mhm.
Chase: Yeah, so today we're going to talk about how you
can identify as non-binary and as trans at the same time,
and how that's okay.
'Cause there's a lot of things that happen in this community.
A lot of people that like...
Like gatekeep, or like give attitude to people who are non-binary.
And say that non-binary people shouldn't be under the trans umbrella.
And you should just be non-binary or trans, like you can't... [claps]
Chase: can't... be together. Ash: mhm, mhm.
Chase: So I want to talk to you about that because
it's an interesting topic to have,
and I've talked about a lot of non-binary things on my channel
before which is fun, and it's really great.
Ash: mhm.
Chase: But people get mad at me.
Ash: They get mad at you?
Chase: Oh my god.
Ash: Because why? Because you're talking alone without a non-binary?
Ash: without a non-binary- Chase: no [laughs]
Chase: They get mad at me because they don't believe what I'm saying.
And it's not because I'm trans or whatever, it's just, they're just like... Non-binary people don't exist.
Ash: They don't exist? Chase: Yeah.
Ash: So your audience isn't very like... open to it or accepting?
Chase: Oh no, my audience is great, it's just the people who find that video
Chase: somehow Ash: Oooh, okay. I see, I see.
Chase: I have no idea. Ash: The little people who...
go down the YouTube rabbit hole, kind of looking for this thing?
Chase: They're like- Ash: They're like [murmurmurmurmur]
Chase: Let me look at non-binary cringe.
Ash: Yes! Chase: Yeah those are the people that I get comments,
So when I get comments on that, like "are non-binary people real?"
I don't even look at the comments because they're all bad.
Ash: Yeah. Chase: It's sad!
Ash: Yeah, it is sad. Chase: Yeah.
Ash: That's what kept me closeted for so long!
Chase: Oh no, tell me.
Ash: Well, just like... Chase: Talk to us.
Ash: Just like, internalised...
Um...
I don't know what you would call it?
Chase: Nonphobia, Nonphobia [laughs]
Ash: Nonphobia [laughs]
Internalised nonphobia because I am amazing, I have no phobias.
Chase: None.
Ash: No, internalised... What would you call it? Nonbinary-phobia?
Chase: Yeah Ash: Or... what do you call it...
Ash: I mean I guess it would just be called,
if you consider non-binary under the trans umbrella,
then it would just be like transitively transphobia.
Chase: Yeah Ash: But yeah so it was just like internalised...
...ish.
Ash: I feel so different like, I don't know, it feels very niche, very unique.
And I recevie a lot of comments that are from, you know, the haters.
Chase: mhm shout out to the haters.
[Chase laughing]
Ash: But I'm really sus- I'm really susceptible to that stuff! Chase: For real though.
Ash: Like, even though I wish I wasn't,
and even though that's not what I preach,
like I preach that your identity is valid and we shouldn't gatekeep and things like that,
and that's really what I believe, but when people talk about my identity to me,
every day, it can't help but sneak into my psyche.
So for a really long time, I knew I...
thought non-binary identities were valid,
and a part of me definitely knew I was non-binary,
but I really tried to push it off.
Because...
Because I internalised everything I read and because...
I didn't want the negative attention, and because
I thought maybe I could just like ignore that part of myself.
Maybe it's managable to not..
Ash: Um... Chase: Come out?
Ash: Yes. Chase: And tell people?
Ash: And be, yeah, me.
Chase: Be you inside, but not outside. Ash: Yeah.
Ash: Or even, be me inside.
Like I could, I was just trying really hard
to pretend that wasn't the case.
Because like I was doing okay.
I wasn't like...
For a while I was doing okay.
Chase: Oh no Ash: Like I wasn't like super happy,
Ash: I was like dealing with a lot, I was going to gender therapy, I was thinking...
about... it was always in the back of my mind.
I was hanging in there.
Ash: I was doing okay. Chase: You're not you.
Ash: Right, mhm. And I thought well if I'm hanging in there now,
I can just hang in there forever.
Chase: [understanding noise] Ash: Isn't that sad?
Ash: I know! But then, but then one day...
I wanted to do more than just hang in there.
Chase: You wanted to Ash: Like, be happy, be totally me.
Chase: Yeah, makes sense. Ash: And so, I thought about that. And then,
Ash: I became too scared to actually do it.
And then... and then I got to this point where I was like...
No. Um, I'm not happy, this isn't okay.
It wasn't like, it wasn't manageable. It was actually pretty miserable for a while.
So then I was like okay I have to like....
Chase: Accept it? Ash: Yeah.
Chase: Come out? Ash: Mhm
Ash: So all the, like, non-binary transphobia is kept me closeted for so long
'cause I really didn't want to deal with it.
I wasn't looking for that kind of attention.
I wasn't looking for like...
Guys I am non-binary, this is my struggle, this is like my...
My, my... whaever.
I think a lot of people think that's why non-binary people
are the way they are, and come out.
Chase: Yes. Ash: Because they don't think it's real.
Ash: That they want these oppression points, that they want...
I don't know, to be special, they want to be a snowflake.
Chase: and- Ash: I want the opposite.
[both laughing] Chase: Which is not what you got, because
you have people making videos about you and talking about like...
"Oh now you're trans?"
"And you were non-binary before you can't be both." and they're just kind of...
Ash: Yeah Chase: All the things that you internalised,
Chase: they're now saying to you, and you knew this was going to happen
and you're like 'can I just live my life?'
Ash: Yes! Chase: Being a content creator (tm)
Ash: mhm Chase: You can't live your life,
Chase: everything is online, which is okay Ash: Right, mhm
Chase: But it would be okay if there wasn't people who were just like...
at the throat of your identity every single day, being like
"actually you aren't like this 'cause this doesn't exist"
It's like.. but I am telling you how I feel.
Ash: And there's no way to convince you!
You can't prove something that can't be proven.
There's no like test I can do to be like 'see, I am non-binary'
[Chase laughing] Ash: I can't like do a genetic thing
Ash: Or like, I can't like show you that I'm-
you either have to believe me or you don't.
And that's just where we are.
Ash: There's nothing that can be done. Chase: Yeah.
Ash: mhm Chase: But it also doesn't hurt you to just.. go with it.
Ash: Right! Chase: Like even if you don't believe it, just accept it.
Chase: Maybe that's a thing.
[Chase laughing]
Chase: You came out in like a... like a...
I would say it took a long time for you to come out.
Because you kind of left little bread crumbs here and there, like hint hint.
Ash: I was dipping my toes in the water for sure.
Chase: Yes, and I like that, I like that you kind of talked about that, but not really.
Like it was like...
Here's a subtle little hint in like the bio of your book
or something like that, like oh this is interesting.
Ash: Oh cool Chase: Who knows, exploring, which is great because
Chase: no one really talks about like I'm confused,
I don't know who I am, let me figure it out.
People usually just internalise that and 'uh' until eventually
they're like okay, I just got to, I just got to tell people.
Ash: Yeah, and then they make a video where they're like hey
I'm starting T tomorrow
and I'm getting top surgery next month. I'm trans.
Chase: And then people are like 'uh but you just transitioned' like no it took years to get to this point.
Ash: It's been brewing.
[both agreeing]
Chase: And then you made a video,
How many months ago? Like two months ago maybe, a month ago?
Ash: yeah... Chase: saying I'm trans.
Ash: I think it was in November. I think it was in November.
Ash: So I guess that would make it- November,
December- yeah like two and a half months ago.
Chase: So you made that video like 'I'm trans' and I was like
Well we all knew this.
[both laughing]
Chase: But I think it was good that you like
You said what you have been feeling for such a long time.
And what a lot of people were like
"I, I don't know, like, how do you identify?"
You kind of like helped people- "now oh now I know how you identify."
Ash: Yeah! Chase: 'Cause you were like a squiggle without a squiggle.
Ash: Yeah!
Chase: Like a... yeah Ash: Sure, or yeah a squiggle and I wasn't explicit
about what words I was comfortable using.
So people might be like 'oh I don't know actually what pronouns Ash uses.'
Chase: Yes
Ash: Or...
Ash has a gender? I just don't know what it is?
Chase: Yes, exactly Ash: So I was like okay guys
Ash: Like okay folks, these are the things.
Chase: "folks"
Ash: I know I said guys, then corrected to folks, I'm trying to really hard.
Chase: Yeah I know
Ash: And you say guys all the time 'cause you don't even try or care.
[surprised laugh]
[whoop]
[both laughing]
Chase: Oh! What pronouns do you use?
We should have talked about this in the beginning
because people are going to be like
[mimicing keyboarding clicking]
But, and then I realised, it doesn't really matter, because you are...
Ash: Pronoun Indifferent! Chase: But what is that?
Ash: So I'm comfortable with any and/or all pronouns.
Because I feel- you know how some people,
you know how agender people, some agender people feel
that they are either without gender, genderless, or they feel gender neutral.
I often feel the opposite, the antithesis.
Chase: All genders Ash: I feel so much gender.
Chase: Oh my gosh- I feel so much gender. Oh my god
Make that someone's senior quote, in your yearbook, I love it.
Ash: I feel so much gender.
Chase: Huh Ash: mhm
Ash: So, that's why every pronoun sounds great to me,
I think the only thing that would make me feel dysphoric or weird or uncomfy
is when people, probably only when they exclusively and often use she pronouns
Ash: because then I just feel like... Chase: you don't get it.
Ash: That they don't get it! Chase: they don't get it.
Ash: And that my so-much gender is being ignored.
And usually I feel a lot of gender euphoria,
like I think of the living room, I think you used he for me for a second,
or maybe you didn't.
Chase: I... sure, maybe. Ash: I think you did, because [Chase laughing]
Ash: I was like "yes!" Because a lot of people don't!
Because it's easier just to stick with 'she.'
Chase: Oh I just use 'they.'
Ash: Yeah 'they' is cool too. Because a lot of people don't use they either they just like...
Just use 'she.'
Chase: I think a lot of people don't know how to use 'they.'
Ash: Yeah Chase: So I have Zuzia in my life, who is like super non-binary, super 'they'
Chase: And I've learned how to use 'they' for them,
So now when someone is like 'they', I'm like,
it clicks right away in my head, so that's what I use all the time.
So it's easy for me to use that for you.
Ash: Right, mhm. Chase: Yes.
Chase: But if you were like 'actually can you use these pronouns?' okay.
Whatever you want. Whatever makes you comfortable.
Chase: Who cares about me. Ash: Right and like
Chase: and my comfort level. Ash: [scoffs] I don't care about you.
[both laughing]
Chase: I keep interrupting like who cares about me and
my comfort level as I'm interrupting you, wow.
Ash: No, you're fine. Sometimes I get excited,
So I might actually interrupt you a lot and there will be comments like
"Ash let Chase talk!" Like I get that a lot.
Chase: Oh my god no I [stutters] sometimes I um
"you talk over Aaron all the time" on the Podcast but I'm like
but we were having a conversation.
Chase: it was- it was... Ash: They're passionate and reading into it
Chase: [yodelling noise]
[whoop]
Ash: I'm not offended if you interrupt me.
Next time I'll whoop out
Chase: Ok good.
Ash: I think in a perfect world though, like, every pronoun
this is so much to ask for people, which is why I don't ask it,
but like every pronoun would be used
like interchangeably and equally.
But like that's not gonna- I could never, I don't think I could
ever expect that from anyone obviously.
Chase: In your life for you, or for everyone?
Ash: For me. Just for me.
Chase: 'Cause I'm like [unsure noises]
Ash: No no no. No no no, you can use- no you can use [Chase laughing]
Ash: You can and should use whatever pronoun-
I give you permission to, you're welcome.
Chase: Thank you Ash: Whatever pronoun you like.
Ash: For me, like it would be dope if like
'she's and 'he's and 'they's were like...
Chase: literally
Ash: all being used to refer to me all the time, mixing it up.
Chase: And it wouldn't confuse people.
'Cause I feel like a lot of people are like
'but that's confusing, 'cause then who are you talking about'
Ash: Fair enough, like, I suppose you're right.
But I feel like it would get...
It wouldn't be confusing with a little practice.
And if you like, I don't know, got to know me and things like that.
I used to think that 'they' pronouns were really hard.
Chase: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Ash: Until I hung out with Chandler.
Because then I had to exclusively-
[stutters] It was just like jumping in the pool, like I was thrown in the pool.
Ash: You know? Chase: Oh yeah.
Ash: I didn't have the practice, I didn't know 'how to swim'
With just 'them, they' pronouns.
Ash: And then I had to! Chase: Yeah.
Ash: 'cause that's, those are the pronouns they use, Chase: Yes.
Ash: And it was actually much easier than... I still mess up sometimes,
But it was much easier than I expected,
I feel like people just get intimidated, so they don't try. Chase: Yes.
Ash: If you try it's actually quite a bit easier, like try it for two days.
Chase: I literally have an entire video on how to start using 'they' pronouns.
I used Zuzia as an example because I kept
messing up because I didn't know how to do it,
so in my head I was like "Zuzia, they, Zuzia, they"
Nonstop saying the name with 'they.'
Ash: Yeah! Chase: So now I always associate them with 'they'
So now I don't mess up and when other people say like
'she' or something, I'm like 'they' right away
like it just comes out I'm like oh
Reflex [laughing]
So, tell me.
Ash: mhm Chase: Tell me a thing.
Chase: Why do you identify as trans also?
Like why did you make a video titled "I'm trans"
Why did you do that?
And I'm not, I'm not being a mean person right now,
I'm literally asking because people are going to be like
"But you're non-binary."
Like and "you're using interchangeable pronouns, that means you're not trans."
Tell the people, I know why, I'm just.... come on guys come on.
guys- oh. [laughing]
Ash: To me, trans means being a gender that isn't
the same as the sex and/or gender you were assigned at birth.
Chase: Yes thats, yep.
Ash: So that's what I am.
So I'm trans.
And for a long time, I would say I was questioning or queer,
And...
For a long time, I convinced myself that I
just wasn't comfortable using the word trans.
It actually just came from a lot of internalised transphobia.
I didn't feel trans enough.
Finally,
Chase: [whoop] out of this world is- I just I just-
I've been talking about this whole not feeling trans enough
for literally like 7 years and it's just...
It's still a thing.
Ash: I- yeah. Chase: It just sucks.
Ash: So it came in phases, so first I truly like
had these internalised psyche ideas that I wasn't trans enough,
then finally I said screw that, I am trans because I fit the definition of trans,
and I feel trans, so, then I accepted it within myself.
But then I thought, phase 2,
well I'm still not going to come out because I'm going to
get a ton of shit and I just don't want to deal with it.
So I was trying to fly under the radar.
and then I was like aw this feels miserable, okay be yourself.
So those were like all the phases.
So yeah I feel trans just because I fit the definition of trans.
And, sometimes I think that there's like this...
little magic about a word that either clicks with a person or doesn't click.
Chase: mmmm Ash: It's kind of like why some people
prefer to call themselves pan versus bi,
versus multisexual.
Some words just feel like you and some words don't.
Even if definitonally they fit you,
Or they're like synonyms to each other,
you still might prefer one word versus another.
So another reason that I identify with trans
is 'cause it feels right to me.
Other non-binary people might not identify with trans.
Even if, I don't know, technically they would kind of fit the definiton.
Chase: Yeah, no, I know a bunch of people who...
are non-binary but don't identify as trans.
You know, like that exists and that's fine.
[stutters] That's fine, you can be trans and non-binary and say that you're trans,
Ash: And I love when binary folks like,
use their platform and use their voice to advocate
for and with non-binary folks.
Because we need those voices!
So like I am a non-binary genderqueer human being, like,
asking you right now if you're binary, to like use your voice and be...
um, an ally.
I know a lot of people are worried about taking up space and things,
but we need your voices.
Chase: Yeah.
Chase: Alright! Thank you so much for joining me.
Ash: You're very welcome.
Chase: I had a lot of fun, we have so many collabs planned.
So many.
Chase: I'm so excited Ash: I'm excited
Chase: We're excited. Okay.
That's it, I don't really know what to say, if you have anything
that you would like me to talk about in the future,
Or maybe if we do collabs in the future again,
if you come back here or I go to you,
I should go to you. I'll go to you, I'll go to you.
Then we'll do those together. Thank you for joining me!
Ash: We have uh, we have a gay bar that has a giant uh dick,
It's literally it's massive, and you can put a quarter in it and ride it
and I just like, think of you.
Because I just feel like...
Chase: you think of you- you think of me when you're riding the weiner?
Ash: When I'm riding the weiner I think of you.
Chase: Bless that is my one life goal, I can lie down.
Ash: So come to Minneapolis, ride the weiner Chase: I will
[Chase laughing]
[clap]
Tag line: Ride the Weiner.
Chase: Ok I love you folks.
Ash: I love you folks, thank you folks for watching,
Chase: Have a great day Ash: You folks are wonderful
Chase: have a great Ash: have a great
Chase: Ok I love you, goodnight, goodbye
[Chase lauging]