John: Since Russia invaded
Ukraine last year, Moscow has
continued its clampdown on
independent media within its
borders.
Many Russian journalists fled
rather than risk imprisonment
for not toeing the government's
line.
One of them is journalist
Mikhail Zeiger, whose book "War
and punishment: Putin, zelensky,
and the path to Russia's
invasion of Ukraine" is coming
out in July.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Mikhail: Thank you for having
me.
John: You left Moscow for Berlin
on February 27, 2022.
That was three days after the
invasion.
You said it was clear you had to
leave.
Why?
Mikhail: Yeah, I felt like it
was my moral obligation.
I knew that you cannot live in a
fascist country.
And if your country invades
another independent country, you
have to fight against it.
I was like the first hours after
the invasion.
I've written an open letter that
was cosigned by Russia's
prominent writers, filmmakers.
And afterwards, it was reposted
and signed by millions of
Russians.
But that was obvious that we, I
could not stay inside the
country because I might have
been imprisoned immediately for
spreading fakes about Russian
army.
John: Has anyone in your circle
of journalistic friends or
colleagues remained in Russia,
and what are you hearing from
them?
Mikhail: Some of my friends are
so bold and brave and crazy, I
would say.
So they deliberately stayed.
They know how much risk is that.
But still, but they chose that
super risky way to stay in
Moscow.
They live expecting that the
police or someone, some security
forces to to come to interrogate
or to search in the apartments
every single day, every single
morning.
But they are still working.
They are blogging, they are
having their YouTube channels.
It is hard.
The country is really depressed
and that depression is spread
all over.
Those journalists who continue
working as independent
journalists inside the country,
they are very depressed with
that illusionary atmosphere that
nothing has changed.
John: And are they able to post
their work on YouTube, on the
internet?
Mikhail: You know, YouTube is
still not blocked in Russia.
And you might know that YouTube
has a very, really important
role in Russia because all the
traditional TV channels are
propaganda.
So YouTube is being watched as per television by those
Russians who oppose these war.
And YouTube is still working and
'still very important.
Mikhail: --
John: Are you able to continue
your work in exile?
Mikhail: Absolutely.
All Russian journalists who have
fled continue working.
And I would say that we didn't
have any political process for
many years.
There are no opposition
politicians in Russia.
So news media, independent
journalists are probably the
most important political
figures, political activists in
today's Russian society, because
Russian society is everywhere
now.
Berlin, Riga, tel aviv, dubai,
New York City.
Many, many cities of America.
There is the new, huge wave of
Russian immigration, up to 1
million people who oppose
Putin's war and not there is
nothing that unifies them except
for independent media.
John: Can you foresee any
circumstances under which you
would want to return to Russia?
Mikhail: I know that it's
impossible until Vladimir Putin
is still is still president of
this country.
I hope that when he's not alive,
the situation can get better.
I'm sure that the war against
Ukraine will be stopped.
The moment when he's dead.
And that's that's absolutely
100% the the condition of any
possible future for Russia.
First, Ukraine should win this
war and then we will start to
deal with our problems.
That's I worked for for many
Russians, that number one,
priority number one is the
victory for Ukraine.
John: But you seem to be saying
nothing's really going to
change.
Nothing's going to get better
until Vladimir Putin is out of
the way.
Mikhail: I'm afraid so, yeah.
And, you know, I'm not -- I'm
not optimistic about his
departure as well, because I'm
not sure that when he's gone,
the system would collapse.
As we know, after Stalin's
death, soviet union existed for
almost 40 years.
John: Michael Zeiger, thank you
very much.
Mikhail: Thank you.
♪♪